1. Bottom line up front (BLUF): Ford apparently took the removable front floorboards out of the open bodies during part and probably all of 1909-1925 production. And apparently wasn’t too concerned about making sure the floorboard delivered with the body was put back in the same body.
Additional details:
2. Deron Shady posted this question during the discussion about his 1913 Wilson bodied touring at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/285490.html see: on Sunday, April 29, 2012 - 11:14 pm:
“What I was curious about is why the floorboards would have been made by a different supplier when it's a Wilson body. I would have thought that the floorboards would have been considered part of the body assy.”
That was prompted because the body has a “W” body number on the wooden front seat frame which is shown below:
Which would indicate that Wilson produced the body (assuming the wood piece is original to that body – and it looks like it would have been).
But has the F.B.Co. stamped on all three front floorboards as shown below:
While we do not know for sure that F.B.Co. stands for Fisher Body Company, we do know that Fisher body company was one of the body companies that supplied Ford Motor Company USA with the 1913 bodies that had some sagging issue because of the way they were designed (i.e. doors all the way down). Ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc13.htm
JUL 14, 1913 Acc. 575, Letter 434, Ford Archives
Noted that 1913 Touring bodies were made by Herbert, Fisher, Wilson, and Beaudett. Apparently the Beaudett bodies differed in construction from the others. Beaudett bodies with a filler block on the rear door hinge posts apparently did not need the steel reinforcing pieces.
And based on current information (always open to additional information that could confirm or correct our understanding) my theory is the F.B. Co. stands for Fisher Body Company.
3. So why do we think the floorboards were supplied by Fisher Body Company or other body companies and not just produced by Ford? David Sosnoski kindly shared that the Record of Change cards for the T-7296 - #1 floor board for the 1915 - 1925 roadster, touring and 1919 - 1922 coupe.
12/23/15 We have added note specifying that this part [#1 floor board] be furnished by body companies or by the Ford Motor Co. only when bodies are furnished.
9/6/19 Furnished by Body Co. when body is furnished.
Note we do not have documentation before 12/23/15 or after 9/6/19 – but initially the floorboards were furnished only if a body was supplied with the chassis. And starting sometime later in 1915 Ford evidently began producing touring bodies so they were then the manufacture of the body.
We would welcome information about 1906-1927 floorboards.
4. So why wouldn’t the Wilson furnished front floorboards be in the Wilson body?
I think sometimes they would be placed back in a body made by the same company. But that it was not a conscious plan to make sure they were put back into the same company’s body – but just that each body would have a complete set of floor boards.
Why do I hold that theory?
First no one has shared a better theory or documentation to say how it really was done. Or if they have I missed it (not the first time nor the last time I will miss something.) I would welcome any information etc. that could support or correct that theory.
Second the photo below shows the Piquette Plant run up yard with several Model S Roadster (one S Runabout on the right middle column.) probably sometime during 1908. Note that none of the Model S Roadsters have the Mother-in-law seat installed. (At least one caption I saw labeled them incorrectly as pickup trucks – which they were not – not the handles on the backs of the front seat.) Trent Boggess pointed out that while the front seat as well as the rear Mother-in-Law seat both have the body number stamped into them, they almost never match. He shared the reason was the workers put any rear seat onto any available Model S Roadster. [Note in this case they were all Beaudett bodies – as Beaudett was the only company supplying the Model S Roadster Body to Ford]. So before the Model T appeared on the scene Ford USA was already mixing and matching parts rather than taking the extra time and effort to keep the parts together. [note the photo below is cropped. The complete photo is shown on page 32 if Stern’s “Tin Lizzie” and I know I have seen it in other books, old car magazines etc.]
Third the photo below is a cropped photo from page 32 of Robert Kreipke’s “The Model T” [great book available from the vendors such as Lang’s at: http://www.modeltford.com/item/123.aspx ] showing a 1910ish Model T body. Note the top front floorboard is clearly not installed.
Fourth the photo below which is cropped from page 66 of Robert Casey’s “Model T Ford” [another excellent book available from the vendors? – didn’t see it but at Amazon.com at: http://www.amazon.com/The-Model-Centennial-Robert-Casey/dp/0801888506 ] It is also on page 179 of Bruce McCalley’s book “Model T Ford” and his “Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia available from the vendors: http://www.modeltford.com/item/MTE-CCD.aspx Note it shows the 1914 style bodies being delivered to the Highland Park Plant. Note the three bodies that are upside down clearly do NOT have the front floorboards attached to them.
Fifth a photo showing the temporary body drop at the Highland Park Plant. Bodies were placed on the chassis and driven to the waiting railroad box car and then chassis and body were separated and placed in the box cars. Front floorboards are not installed.
Sixth the photo below from http://mtfca.com/books/15_factory.htm “The Ford Factory Facts 1915” also page 96 Stern’s “Tin Lizzie” show a 1915 touring body being loaded into a freight car. While not shown – it is highly probable that the front floorboards are not installed at this time.
Seventh, when the dropped the bodies on the chassis during the assembly line process the floorboards are not there – they would be in the way of the steering wheel, transmission pedals etc. I found a couple of photo showing the floorboards were not there but it is getting late – so I will show a 1924 Canadian cropped photo from page 111 of Robert Kreipke’s “The Model T.” By this date Ford was no longer purchasing open car bodies from outside suppliers. All the high cowl open cars (at least USA open cars) were supplied by Ford (ref e-mail and/or posting by Trent Boggess). But the earlier cars also had the front floorboards removed when the bodies were dropped onto the chassis for a permanent mounting and not just the short trip to the railroad box car.
Eighth there are several photos in “Ford Shops” that show the bodies being moved etc. that also show the bodies do not have the front floorboards.
5. All that to say – the front removable floorboards were often NOT installed in their final location while the body was being transported, installed, worked on etc. They may have been somewhere else with the body – but I believe they could just have easily been stacked somewhere waiting for the time when they should be installed and not have to be pulled back out for some reason.
We would welcome additional comments, facts, suggested areas for further study or investigation etc. Dave S. suggested we research the earlier floor board Record of Changes – and if anyone is near the Benson Ford Archives and could look at the Record of Changes for the earlier floorboards – they may support the theory or disprove it for the earlier cars. Also if folks know of other original cars with floorboard markings – please let us know. Currently we have only a handful and it is a little difficult to understand what happened with millions of cars if we only have 5 or 10 data points.
Again thank you all for supporting our hobby. There is still so much more to discover or more accurately to rediscover and document.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Correction on the photo above. The one below shows the 1914 style bodies being delivered and without the floorboards on the upside down top three bodies.
Respectfully corrected,
Hap l9l5 cut off
I think it is important to remember Ford was mass producing cars, not matching interchangeable parts for us to critique 80 years later.
Ron the Coilman
Hap, love that drop line photo of the 24? coupe. Looks just like my coupe. Im going to save and print that for my car display - ok?
I don't know how Ford purchased their supplies, or chose manufacturers of various parts such as floor boards or spoked wheels but, I assume they were always on the lookout for suppliers who would and could give them the best prices for better prices than Ford could produce the part for and if they did find a supplier to manufacture a part for a good price, they would order said parts and deliver them to the appropriate place on the assembly line. Jim Patrick
I have a '14 Touring #500999 (April 22, 1014). It has a Beaudette body and has F.B. Co. stamped on the bottom of the front floorboards in the same way as Deron Shady's car.
My car appears to be original. Also, I have not looked under the rear floorboards to see if they are stamped in this way.
The "B" for Beaudette is stamped on the center of the front seat metal support at the top, just under the seat cushion. This "B" is on both the front seat and back seat support panels.
Keith
Hap,
Your theory is sound, and pretty much the same conclusion that I'd reached myself. However, I had almost talked myself out of it the other day because of a few things that crossed my mind. The most obvious problem I could find would be whether or not all of the body manufacturers dimensioned their floorboards the same. I was thinking about how the sills on the Beaudett bodies were different than the others which made me wonder if the floorboards would be different as well.
The second thing that made me wonder would simply be the problem of transporting hundreds of floorboards from the point where they were removed to the point of final assembly (or body drop, or where ever they were re-installed). In order to understand this we would need to understand exactly when they would have been removed. If the bodies were delivered to Ford with the floorboards installed, then the likely assumption would be that they would have been removed and thrown into the rear floor to ride along the assembly line until the point when they would have been re-installed. This would be the logical approach, unless it would interfere with something that I haven't yet thought about. However, if they were removed after the bodies were delivered and they didn't ride with the body, then they must have been stored somewhere near the point of removal which would require them to be transported to the point of installation. That would certainly account for the mismatch in makers, but it surely doesn't jive with the typical Henry Ford method of doing things the simplest and most cost effective way.
Perhaps the body manufacturers were just required to provide an equal number of floorboard assemblies as the number of bodies delivered, but not necessarily together. It may be that they shipped a given number of bodies, say 500, and then they also delivered a container with 500 floorboard assemblies which could be taken directly to the point of installation on the assembly line. This would certainly be the least labor intensive way to get the job done, as having to remove them, transport them up/down a couple floors and then re-install them probably wouldn't be too efficient.
I'm curious to hear every one else's thoughts on the matter.
Deron
From the 1915 Ford Shops book, p 240. This chapter talks about painting and upholstering the body.
"The cushions, horn, and pasteboard for the bottom of the rear seat, the mats and footboard, are then thrown in by a man who does nothing else but make up these things in a package and pass one into each body as it goes along."
I don't know when Ford started building it's own bodies so I don't know if this refers to Ford built bodies or all bodies. The book goes into great detail on how each part of the car was built, how the body was painted and upholstered, but says nothing about how the body was built. I'm guessing that this is because they were not being built by Ford.
If you look at the photo of the 1914 bodies on the cart that Hap posted there does not appear to be any upholstery in them. I believe that the bodies were received in primer and the painting, upholstery and top was all done by Ford.
Dave S.
I thought they were just old packing crates!
How about F loor B oard Co mpany?
Seriously Hap, thanks for all of your work.
Does all of this mean a "numbers matching" car is NOT original?
I had this in one of my 1919 trade magazines. this piece explains Ford Body Producers in 1919.
A few thoughts:
1. Logically, unless floorboards have to be matched to body supplier, there is no reason to think that Ford would do other than buy 500 floorboards from its best floorboard producer to go with 500 bodies from its best body supplier. So floorboards would be treated no differently to fenders or springs.
2. If the floorboard shape varied with body supplier, then they would surely buy 500 Type A floorboards to go with 500 Supplier A bodies, 500 Type B boards for 500 Supplier B bodies etc, and not care at all about serial numbers.
3. Interesting paragraph from Fred Miller, especially the first sentence. I suggest that the new Ford body plant was probably in the Rouge facility, where the Eagle boats were built in WWI.
Keith,
Thank you for sharing the information about your 1914 Beaudett touring. When you have a chance would you also please lift up the front seat cushion? Look down at the wooden seat frame in front of the gas tank and see if there is a body tag similar to the one below. This one is from Eric Hylen’s 1914 Beaudett.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
David,
Reference your comment:
“If you look at the photo of the 1914 bodies on the cart that Hap posted there does not appear to be any upholstery in them. I believe that the bodies were received in primer and the painting, upholstery and top was all done by Ford.”
You are correct – those bodies shown in the photo were unpainted and did not have upholstery in them yet. That photo is on page 179 of Bruce’s book, his CD, and a few other books. But if we look at the tags that were attached to a new 1914 shown below: (from May-Jun 1971 “Vintage Ford” used by permission to promote our hobby and club.)
Note a couple of additional items have fallen into place (or at least I think they did for me). Note that Pontiac was the name used for Beaudett. And they along with Herbert, and Ford are listed as “Maker” and “Finisher” on both cards. But the body makers Fisher, Wilson, Hayes, Monroe, are NOT listed as Finishers. I am not sure how much the “Finisher” did. I.e. paint and upholstery or just one or the other. But notice that Deron’s car is a Wilson body (from posting about his 1913 Wilson bodied touring at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/285490.html .) And that it also had a KA stamped on the wooden seat frame -- shown below:
I believe that KA stamping represents the “Finisher.” If there are any other Wilson, Hayes, Monroe, 1914 ish body owners out there – would you please check to see if you have a KA or other stamping on your front seat wooden frame?
Note in the case of the 1914 Fisher bodied touring # 148429 -- American was marked the “Finisher” and the top was marked provided by Det Motor Co.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Hap-
It is interesting to note that on the tags under "Finisher" there is also a company: "K. & A." However, it is not indicated as the company that did the work.
I know we have seem that KA mark on other cars.
It looks like there is a double check system in place on those tags. There is the "broad stroke" line and a check mark. However, they don't always agree! Note on the lower "body tag" there is a check mark on, "Right" broadstroke on, "Left".
I believe you correct with the finishers "stamp" next to the body maker's number. Hereis what was done on a 1911 touring. The body is Beaudette and it looks as if Briggs Co. did the finish work.
: ^ )
Keith,
I believe that you're getting two cars confused. The "KA" stamping is on my 1913 Wilson bodied car while the tag shown is from Hap's archives. I have to say that his theory sounds plausible, and quite likely.
Thanks for posting the photos of the 1911 stampings also. It fascinates me that even 100 years after the fact, there are still mysteries to be solved. And even more that there are very good original cars to provide the clues necessary!
By the way, does anybody know exactly what company the "KA" would designate? Detroit history is another one of my interests, and it would be interesting to know where that company was located. I'm currently looking through old information to see if I can locate the old CR Wilson building.
Deron
Keith,
Thank you for posting the 1911 example of the Beaudett with the Briggs stamping. I had thought of that -- but did not have time to locate it last night.
And as Deron pointed out the Tags went with the 1914 Fisher body that was Finished by American but it was the clue that helped me see that Wilson did NOT finish their own bodies (at least not in 1914 according to those tags). But that KA was one of the companies that did Finish bodies and his 1913 Wilson bodied car had the KA stamp.
For folks like me that are a little slow -- Keith kindly sent me a photo that clearly shows the lower screw head in the upper picture and the upper screw head in the lower picture he posted is the same screw head. The B-8554 is on the passenger side (USA) of that screw head and the BRIGGS is on the driver's side of that screw head.
Deron -- for some additional places to look for CR Wilson information -- check the Cadillac information 1902-1904. CR Wilson supplied a very similar looking but the parts did not interchange body to both Cadillac and Ford during 1902-1904 time frame.
KA – one more item to learn more about.
Please keep the body numbers and finisher names coming.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
There is no reason to assume the floorboards have to be made by the same company as the bodies. I'm sure Ford outsourced parts for his cars, and I believe the floorboards were universal, regardless of who made the body. I have a March 1913 runabout that has what I believe are the original floorboards. The body was made by Fisher. The two upper boards are unmarked, but one of them does have an L on it. The big bottom floorboard does have F.B.Co. stamped in the center of it on the bottom side. I have a 1914 Ford Parts Book in front of me. It lists all floorboards by part number, and says specify size.
Larry,
My theory is that the body maker was required by Ford (part of the contract for the body) to also supply the floorboards for the body. That is based on the information posted above and reposted here that David Sosnoski kindly shared. It is from the Record of Change cards for the T-7296 - #1 floor board for the 1915 - 1925 roadster, touring and 1919 - 1922 coupe.
On the change card it has the following remarks:
12/23/15 We have added note specifying that this part [#1 floor board] be furnished by body companies or by the Ford Motor Co. only when bodies are furnished.
9/6/19 Furnished by Body Co. when body is furnished.
Note we do not have documentation before 12/23/15 or after 9/6/19 – for that board. The documentation probably exists at the Benson Ford Archives but I do not have access to it at the moment. (Always an optimist – I’m hoping someone will visit the Benson Ford and be curious enough to look that information up and share it with us. Plan B -- I will do much better financially than I expect and I will be able to quit my job and move to Richmond IN to be near the Model T Museum and be able to drive up to the archives in Detroit. Plan C – I’ll wait until I have some vacation time and visit the archives again.) Based on the number of original floorboards that are stamped it appears that the body companies were supply some of the floor boards before 1915.
And in this thread I am hoping to document that individual body makers did supply their bodies to Ford with the front floorboards – perhaps in a stack – but 10 bodies would normally have the front floorboards to fit the 10 bodies. But that Ford did not bother to keep them together. Rather Ford put anyone’s floorboard in anyone’s car – at least 1913-1922ish or so. So sometimes the owner of a car will find the front floorboards were produced by the same company that produced their body maker but it is just likely they will have floorboards produced by one of the other body makers or even by Ford later on when Ford was producing the bodies are fitted to their body.
Why would I care? Well – if the front floorboards are marked with the body maker and they were kept with the body – they could be helpful in identifying who produced the body. But “IF” they were produced by the different body makers and installed by Ford without regard to which company produced the body – then they will not be helpful in establishing which company produced the body. And why would I care which company produced the body? Because if we can figure out how to identify the different body makers then we can hopefully figure out which sheet metal interchanges well and which sheet metal does not interchange well between the various body makers and years the body were produced. Ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc15.htm
JUN 26, 1915 Factory Letter
"Hereafter when ordering body panels for 1915 cars, please give both the car and body numbers. The body number will be found on the right sill just inside the front door. This number will be preceded by a letter which indicates by whom the body was made.
"The above information is necessary as panels for bodies made by our various suppliers vary somewhat."
And hopefully we can make it easier for folks to rebuild their tourings and runabouts as a result of that information.
Probably way down in the weeds as far as most folks are concerned – but one of the items I am hoping to discover more about.
Thanks to everyone who has and continues to contribute material, thoughts, questions etc.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Larry,
If you have time, would you also please take a look at the front seat frame in front of the gas tank where there probably is a body number? And would you look to see if there are any other letters or numbers that might indicate who was the "Finisher"?
And I agree with Ron -- Ford was selling cars and not trying to keep things "matched up" or perfect for folks 80 to 100 years later.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Hap - I just checked my '14 Touring #500999. The body number under the front seat cushion (like the one on Eric Hylen's pictured above) is there but mostly unreadable. It looks like it might be: 4 14 8775 (or last digit 6). It's very hard to read and would not photograph worth a darn.
I also looked for a finishers stamp and there isn't anything.
I checked under the back floorboards and can't see any markings, and the back floorboards are in very good condition.
Check my profile for a picture of the '14 taken in Greenfield Village at the OCF in 2007.
Keith
I doubt if the rear floor boards on the pre-1919 touring bodies would have a serial number. They were not removable and would have been considered just a part of the body. Unlike the front boards which are removable. I'll have to look through the other ROC's to see if there are any other notes.
For Keith Gumbinger – Great looking 1914 touring on your profile – and I agree with your favorite saying “Its hard to build a garage that’s toooooo big.” Thank you for checking for the body number area again. You stated earlier that your car is a Beaudett body with the “B” stamped into both the front and back seat heel panels. And from the thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/73672.html?1227667714 you stated you have the Beaudett metal tag with the 4 dot 14 dot 8775 (or maybe ends in 6). And yes the 4 and 14 would represent Apr 1914. Because Beaudett was also listed as a “Finisher” I would think (guess) that many of their bodies would have also been finished by Beaudett rather than one of the other “Finishers” I do not have any photos that show what was written on the paper tags that would have probably been attached to a 1913 or 1915 T. From the photos of the new 1913 Ts Garnet posted (thanks Garnet!) at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/235316.html?1317653296 and one shown below we know that some of the 1913s also came with those inspector tags. Any one have any leads on some similar tags? With the engine number we do not need the car – just the tag to help add to the data.
But the 1914 tags we can read imply that Beaudett could have built and also “finished” their bodies. We still need to figure out if the “Finisher” included paint and upholstery or just one of those. I would guess both – but that is just a guess at this point. So if Beaudett “finished” the body – there would not be any “Finisher” stamp added. That is all just initial “theory – guess” at the moment. But if we keep gaining additional information, I believe this small section of the puzzle will start to take shape.
For all -- I need to find an e-mail or sentence in a book etc. that I thought I read. I believe it said something along the lines of “….as late as 191x (not sure of the date – early 1914 come to mind) most bodies were still arriving at the Ford Plant fully painted and upholstered.” If anyone has additional information on when Ford began receiving bodies in the “white” i.e. that needed painting and upholster, and about when they stopped purchasing completely finished bodies (the touring and roadsters primarily) I am looking for that sort of information also. We know the 1914 bodies in the photo pictures above were “in the white” i.e. not final paint and not upholstered. That photo is labeled in at least one book as being taken in 1913 – which is possible since the 1914 style bodies were introduced in Aug 1913 (ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1914.htm see model year).
For Dave Sosnoski – I agree with you that the rear floorboards that were not removable would have been considered part of the body and probably not stamped. However, if someone finds a body company stamp on the rear floorboards that are not removable – that would be a good indication of which company made the body. So far I do not recall anyone posting a note about a body manufacture on a rear floorboard. Does anyone else remember one or does anyone have such a stamp on a floorboard. (I would guess many of us have not looked for any kind of body manufacture letters on the rear floorboards. I haven’t thought about looking there until typing this paragraph.) And yes, please let us know if you find anything in the other Record of Changes (ROC) for the floorboards etc.
Again thanks to everyone for helping add to the data we have and to make more sense out of it. Current wants:
1. Additional photos of what was written on similar “inspector tags” that show body company, finisher, and top.
2. Additional data about the floorboards and when they were supplied by the body maker or other notes from the Record of Change cards that could help date things or make better sense of things.
3. Additional details on when and which body makers supplied which types of bodies. Bruce has some excellent data at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/A-B.htm
3.a. But I would like to find an existing sample of a Kahlar produced 1915 body – so far I do not have any of those documented. (I wonder if the KA “Finisher” on the 1914 tag was related to Kahlar body company? )
3.b. I would like to be able to know how to tell a Herbert from a Hayes body. Note on the 1914 tags both of those companies are listed – but only one of them on each tag and not both of them on a single tag. See the discussion at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/210232.html where a 1914 touring has an “H.”
Just reflecting – life is really good when your wants are additional data about cars rather than praying the results form the hospital lab test come back good rather than bad. For those of you facing much more critical “wants” hang in there and know that folks care about you. And for all of us remember to hug the ones you love!
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off (avoiding the yard work)
I will try to remember to look tomorrow to see if there are any other markings on my car other than the body number, and the "F". I don't recall seeing any, but I never noticed the F.B.CO. either. Another piece of logic. Since Derons body was made by Wilson, and mine is made by Fisher, why would they both have floorboards with F.B.Co. on them? Duh!`
Hap-
Is this what you are looking for:
"While many of Ford’s body suppliers furnished them completed bodies, that is, bodies ready to be mated with finished chassis on the assembly line, a large percentage of them furnished Ford with bodies in-the-white, composite bodies delivered without trim, paint, varnish and hardware. Ford’s bodies in-the-white were typically finished by American Auto Trimming, Windsor, Ontario based firm with a large satellite plant in Detroit."
http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/f/ford/ford.htm
: ^ )
Keith
This is one of the most interesting pieces of information I've seen. Thanks Keith!
I had no idea there were so many Model T body suppliers!
And I never heard of some of those Model A body styles: the Deluxe Pickup and the Town Car Delivery, for instance.
Thanks for that link, Keith.
Larry – thanks for taking another look – please let us know if you do or do not see any other letters.
Keith – thanks for posting the link to the Coach Built site. They have a lot of information compiled in one location and it is an excellent source for additional items to research. The only drawback I have with it is it is similar to the 1955 book “Tin Lizzie” by Sterns. They both make lots of statements but unfortunately usually don’t let the researcher know where the statements came from. For example on the short Kahler Manufacturing page at http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/k/kahler/kahler.htm they have:
“Between 1915 and 1921 open Ford Model T car bodies seem to have been built by five different suppliers: Ford, Beaudette, Fisher, Kahler Mfg., and Wilson. The amount of steel vs wood varied with the manufacturer. Ford, Beaudette and Fisher seem to have used more steel in the seat frames than the others, and used a steel cover over the gas tank. Wilson and Kahler used wood covers over the tank. Beaudette seems to have used steel floorboard risers before the others.”
I may have read that only on the Coach Built site – but from memory I believe I have read that in another location. Sometimes it would be helpful to know the source(s). That way we can know if we have two independent sources or two sources quoting the same original source. And unless the “H” stamped on some of the 1915 front seat heel panels was used by Kahler then there was also another body maker or two. But again – good information to further research and follow up on.
Instead, the paragraph I was looking for is found on page 65 of Robert Casey’s “The Model T – A Centennial History.” It is in the section where the author is discussing the 1914ish expansion of the Highland Park Plant with the addition of crane ways between buildings and the addition of new buildings. In part he says:
“… The new buildings allowed Ford to move painting and upholstering of automobile bodies in-house. For many years Ford bought its bodies from outside suppliers. As late as April 1914, 95 percent of those bodies came to Highland Park already painted and upholstered. By October [1914], 40 percent of Model T touring car bodies were being painted and trimmed in the new buildings. In this photograph, a number of painted touring car bodies can be seen drying on the right side of the crane way, near the platform labeled W5-9.” [note the photo is dated in the lower right hand corner 11-11-14 which is also helpful.] Following are two small sections of that larger photo. [Again Robert Casey’s “The Model T A Centennial History” is available from the vendors and our club [the one hosting this web site] at: http://modeltstore.myshopify.com/products/the-model-t-a-centennial-history Below is the section W5-9 which I believe shows painted bodies to the right and bodies still in primer “in the white” to the right. I do not think either of those have upholstery yet. But they appear to be designed for the flat wood firewall and based on the date of the photo – that would make them 1914 style bodies.
Below is an upholstered but I believe painted body which was across the crane way from the other 1914 bodies.
Fortunately Robert Casey provides some extensive footnotes on his paragraphs. In this case foot note 34 goes with that paragraph and refers the reader to:
#34: “Trent Boggess, “The Customer Can have Any Color He Wants – So Long As It’s Black,” “Vintage Ford, Nov – Dec 1997, 34, 37; Arnold and Faurote, “Ford Methods,” 386-88 [different page numbers are used in the version Bruce recreated/scanned/cleaned up and is part of Bruce’s CD], and Biggs “Rational Factory, 123. The Boggess article is a goldmine of useful information on Ford’s painting practices.”
There is still lots more to discover (rediscover) and hopefully some of it will be useful to others in the future. Again thanks to everyone for their inputs – both now and when you run across some leads in the future. Like that stone soup – as everyone contributes a little the entire pot gets a lot better.
Respectfully submitted,
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I thought it was odd that the Coach Built site mentioned Hayes as a supplier of sheet metal and fenders, but not bodies. The '15 Touring that I had for 10 years has the H stamped into the front seat riser, and we all assumed it stood for Hayes. The site doesn't mention any other H body makers either. Maybe Hayes and Kahler were in cahoots and the Hayes sheet metal was assembled and sent to Ford by Kahler. (?) It mentions that Kahler bodies had wooden seat frames around the gas tank, and mine did.
Hello Mike: My 15 has a wooden seat frame and I have always thought it was just incorrectly restored, but maybe not? Is there any other tell tale sign to determine if my car's body is Kahler? Also, was the kick panel on yours wood as well, or steel?
Thanks,
Barry
Barry,
If your car has the original wood framing there is a possibility that if you look on the wooden seat frame as well as the right front floor board riser you will find the body number and possibly a letter indicating who produced the body. Please see the posting "Home for the holidays for details on where and what to look for at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html
Mike's body had a metal front seat heel panel with the "H" marked in it and it is shown below:
It also had a rivetted cowl that is shown below (the second headlight switch was installed by Mike to work the tail lamp).
Note Beaudett continued to produce the wood seat framed bodies (i.e. similar seat frame construction to the 1914 bodies) at least through May 1915 and if I had time to look some more I believe we have samples past that.
There is a good chance you should also notice that the body does NOT have the typical carriage bolt in the side of the body in front of the rear doors. However during 1918-1919 when some but not all of the body makers went back to providing wooden seat frames -- they continued the carriage bolt in the side of the body in front of the rear doors.
If you have some photos of your body -- that may help.
Mike -- a 1998 posting I recently read (and you thought you were behind on your reading) Trent indicated Hayes was one of six body makers for touring bodies during the 1915-1921 time frame - and I think he also mentioned a body maker that started with a "K" but I need to check to make sure.
Also note that the Coach Built site mentioned that Hayes did supply bodies during the intro paragraphs but only listed them as supply sheet metal parts in the table. And in the web page on Hayes they did not mention Hayes providing Model T bodies. But I think they did.
Respectfully submitted,
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I just checked my '13 Fisher bodied roadster, and there is no other markings other than the body number.
Larry,
Thank you so much for checking! It might mean it was upholstered/finished by K&A -- but it also might mean nothing. Too little data for me to know at this point.
Again, thank you for taking the time to look.
Respectfully submitted,
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