Smoky T

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Smoky T
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 09:43 pm:

I've been driving this car for ten years or so.
A couple weeks ago it started smoking really bad all of a sudden.
Because I'm so smart I knew it was bad rings.
After a few days work it's running with new rings and smokes just as bad.
How can that much oil get into the combustion chambers without going past the rings?
Any ideas?
The compression is even and all plugs are equally black and oily.t


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 09:50 pm:

Oil drain holes blocked in the valve chamber is one, diesel in your fuel is another.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 09:51 pm:

Did you do anything to the valves? Very worn valve guides can draw oil into the cylinders. Blue smoke is an indication of excessive oil consumption. If the smoke is black, it is an indication of a very rich fuel mixture. White smoke out the exhaust is an indicator of leaking coolant.

I hope you find out the cause. Can you see where that smoke is coming from? If it is out of the oil filler or the space where the throttle rod goes through the engine, it is excessive blowby caused by bad rings.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 10:04 pm:

Bob - might be a silly question, but did you offset the ring gaps when you put them on the pistons?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 10:07 pm:

It sounds a little simple, but a few years ago we met a guy who had just purchased his "first" "T" , ( he got taken....) but not by a bad engine, it smoked bad ...
but what it was , there was no oil filler cap.
so they put a rubber stopper in the neck,
and it could not vent


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 10:10 pm:

I checked the fuel..seems OK but I'll drain it and refill with some new gas.
Guides are tight. They were redone about 6 or 8 years ago.
I'll look at the drain holes but I don't think its possible to make this much smoke by loose guides or plugged drains.
This thing REALLY smokes!
I drive this car year round.
It hasn't been sitting all winter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 10:12 pm:

I had this several times in my racing engines. It was caused by an extra hole in the top of the piston.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 10:14 pm:

I staggered the ring gaps and it has the right filler cap.
No holes in the pistons.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 10:18 pm:

Bob said he has even compression and equally oily black plugs, so I doubt its a hole in a piston.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 11:06 pm:

So to recap: "it started all of a sudden"
Re-ringed and I assume, nothing odd found and no change in smoking. Guides OK. Fuel possibly OK. Good compression and oily plugs. Does the car have a vaporizer? Could that stainless tube (if damaged)cause this? Outside oil line? A 3 pipe problem...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 11:32 pm:

Wow, you should not have an bugs there Bob.

My fist guess is the gas. With all cylinders looking the same, it would almost have to be something common to all cylinders. Some kind of oil in the gas?? Maybe someone or kid added something to the gas tank??

Are there any vacuum lines or any other thing plumbed into the intake that could be sucking oil from the crankcase?

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 11:46 pm:

No cracks between the intake and valve tappet chamber??? You did not add a PVC valve that is stuck open...Smile!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 11:46 pm:

It has a VW bug carb on it and no vacuum lines.
I hooked up the bug carb a few years ago just to see if I could make it work and it works so good I just left it.
The more I listen to all the possibilities on here I'm going to drain the gas and flush it out and see how fresh gas runs. (tomorrow)
I really appreciate all the ideas put forth here.
It helps me sort things out.
No bugs but I'll probably get a visit from some blue haired old lady squawking about killing her bugs!
How the hell do you spell squawking? Doesn't look right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Thursday, May 03, 2012 - 11:55 pm:

I pulled the intake off and looked for cracks between the ports and valve chamber.
There's nothing obvious.
Looks like enough space under the ports for water to flow between port and chamber.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 12:48 am:

Just curious, is all that smoke coming out of you exhaust system? Any smoke leaking out directly from anywhere in the engine compartment?

That smoke looks white to me, any water in your oil? Are you loosing coolant?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 12:56 am:

If the oil is not getting past the rings....the only other path is that it's being sucked up past the valve guides from the tappet chamber. replacing the gas is not going to fix the problem unless you mixed oil or diesel in the gas.
If the pistons or rings are not the correct size for the cylinders.....or the ring gaps are lined up. Did the engine smoke like this before you worked on it? If it did not....sorry to say you may be part of the problem.
Don't like to say that....but I have been there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 01:23 am:

Newfangled ethanol fuel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 05:43 am:

Slightly off subject but this reminded me of something that happened a few years ago in our town.

We had a hoon who got his drivers license and purchased a big V8 Holden ( Aust Chev) every night or early morning he terrorized the locals by doing wheelies and roaring around with his loud exhaust.

Until someone ??? put oil in his gas tank in increasing amounts until it smoked better than Bob's Ford. He couldn't drive anywhere with any amount of throttle without leaving a trail of smoke.

Thinking it was rings he had the motor overhauled but it didn't seem to fix the problem.

He sold the car but we never had any had any more noisy nights.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 06:12 am:

If you had the head off to do the ring job perhaps your getting fluid leaking from a bad or improperly seated gasket. Did you re-tighten the head bolts once it warmed up? Warped head?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 07:56 am:

The reason I tore it apart was because of the smoke.
The smoke is definately blue...light blue.
Cooling system's good.
Doesn't lose water.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 09:03 am:

Bob Gruber:

My guess would be a badly out of round cylinder or two.

It is NOT your problem but I get a lot of smoke when I first start a new motor because I use anti size on the exhaust manifold threads. Its gone after the first start up.

A530


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 09:07 am:

Sorry wrong picture above;

A530


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 09:10 am:

I checked the cylinders with a dial bore gauge and there's no more than .005" wear...mostly taper but a couple thousandths out of round.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 09:11 am:

Bob, knowing your yard's proximity well is it possible you backed over your camp fire and the rear tire is on fire?

Last year I worked on a friends 09' Mitchell It had that same smoke I remember thinking it's not possible for a car to smoke this bad with out a major problem But what It was was a big overdose of marvel mystery oil in the gas. As I learned it does not take to much oil to have this affect.
OR..... It does not run on the same fuel your VW Rabbit does! (DIESEL)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 09:13 am:

My 26 smoked like that when i would slow down after driving, a club member suggested 20w50 oil, i tried it and the smoking stopped, just a thought.
Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 09:27 am:

Hmmmm...I've been running 10-30 oil a long time.
I'll have to check for tire tracks in the fire pit and maybe my T mated with my Rabbit!
Usually it's just Ts that reproduce once you get a couple together.
Dave Huson...I enjoy all the pics you post.
No wrong ones!
It's nice to have all this help.
Thanks a bunch everybody.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 09:27 am:

Congratulations Peter! you have just won my,"Best Story This Year Award!"

I had a similar event happen to me in 1974. I was buying, repairing and selling Morris Minors for extra cash then. I sold one of my better ones to a co-worker and told him this one would get 30 to 33 mpg even in the city. We worked the 4:00 PM to Midnight shift and the new owner drove about 35 miles one way to work. Every night, someone would bring in a gallon can of gas, normally used for the lawn mower and dump it in the Morris Minor gas tank. Every evening the guy would complement me on the fine car I sold him and tell me he still had not added gas and the tank was not empty yet. He was convinced the gauge was bad and he would run out on the way to work. About ten days went by and he had stopped getting any gas donations, when he came in to our work break room and said he finally added gas, but the mileage was much better than I told him, he was getting 96 mpg. He knew he had been had when no one could stop laughing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 10:31 am:

Well, it's fixed and my face is red!
I dumped 3 or 4 gallons of diesel in it from a can I forgot about...screwing with a furnace last winter.
Sure wish I'd posted my woes here before I tore it apart and re-rung it.
You guys made me stop and think instead of having tunnel vision.
The stories from Peter and James were a great read, too.
Thanks everybody!
This forum is a great resource.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 10:47 am:

Bob,

At least you had good lube on the top end while your new rings were seating.

A few years ago this rather unsavory individual stopped here about midnight saying he was lost and out of gas. I get that not too infrequently because of the bulk tanks down by the barn - they have off road diesel but nobody ever believes that.

I told him the tanks didn't have gas but he didn't like that and started being a jerk so I told him I did have some gas in a can.

As it turns out a Cadillac will run on kerosene. Lots of valve clatter and smoke, and I suspect reduced power, but it will run.

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 01:41 pm:

Bob - If it's any consolation, you've certainly "brightened my day", and also, probably brightened the day for a lot of other forum readers! Hey, we're all human, right? Can't help thinking that this whole "issue" sounds like something I'd do,......but not you! You know, I sure have to respect you for being the kinda' stand-up guy you are and having the "guts" to tell us all the truth about what REALLY happened proves it! I think I'd have been tempted to make up a story about some weird reason for the smoke and some "heroic" manner in which I "solved" the problem!

Anyway, don't be surprised if a new "nickname" develops from this incident; only I'm not sure if the "nickname" should be for ol' Rusty, or for ol' Bob,.....aka...."Benzene Bob"! Ha,ha,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 01:43 pm:

Bob,, Some guys will just about do anything for attention these days. Glad you got it figured out and hope to see you at the meeting if I can take off from work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 01:46 pm:

We had a guy at work that got hit by lightening carrying an umbrella in the parking lot in a thunder storm. He was ok but everyone called him "Sparkey" after that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob from Nova Scotia on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 02:18 pm:

look at it this way Bob, you got to freshen up an engine, and likely have seated the new rings quite well. we have all done stuff like this, like the time I tried to no avail to stop a rather bad leak on a Kingston L4, until I saw the float for it sitting on my bench!!!!

Steve, thats the funniest thing I have read in a while!!! good show, and doesnt it feel good to put some twit in their place once and a while


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Victoria Australia on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 02:27 pm:

I'm guessing that there may even be a lesson in this story for each and everyone of us, that need to get 23 things done in 15 minutes.....slow down...concentrate...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 02:29 pm:

Was it hard to start? One thing for certain, you wouldn't have to worry about vapor lock.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 03:21 pm:

Very glad you found it out, even if not on the first think through Smokey,....uh, I mean Bob.

In our mistakes we learn more about ourselves and others than we ever do in our successes. The new rings will serve you well Smokey, ...sorry, Bob.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 03:23 pm:

Or we could just call you "...The Bear"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Mullis on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 04:09 pm:

Peter if you ever find out who put oil in your neighbor's gas tank, please tell him that I think he is awesome. That sounds like something that I would get "accused" of doing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 05:03 pm:

Bob don't feel bad, I bet your car never smoked as bad as Rick J's 1927 Essex even on a good day. Now that's smoke!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 05:07 pm:

Cheeze Bob, you got allergies? I can't believe you didn't smell the Diesel!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 07:28 pm:

Thanks for all the name-calling! Yuk Yuk.
The diesel was mixed with whatever gas was in the tank when I dummied up and dumped it in and all I could smell was that rotten alcohol gas garbage.
The way I found out for sure was to smell the empty cans in my shed. One empty smelled like diesel.
Then I remembered having the diesel around for the furnace in my shop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 07:39 pm:

Hal,
It wasn't all that hard to start...was different though. Even started cold a couple times, but it wasn't straight diesel. Maybe 50/50. Dunno for sure.
I drove it around the block (about a mile) a couple times while messing with it and it didn't smoke going fast...35...under load.
Smoked the worst sitting still goosing the gas.
I won't forget this episode.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 08:03 pm:

Live and learn. At least it's a happy ending.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 08:27 pm:

James G,
Here is a Morris Minor story for you.
The mechanic at a garage next to where I worked had an elderly lady drive in in her Morris Minor which was belching thick black smoke and running badly.

She was worried that the motor had self destructed and wanted to know what it would cost to fix it.

After looking at it he gave her a price - "It would be free"

With that he reached in and took her hand bag off the Choke control that she had pulled out to hang her hand bag on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 09:37 pm:

I wonder how many people nowadays even know what a hand choke is?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 12:56 am:

Alot of woman use the choke lever to hang bags on for some reason. One had their car tuned 5 times before someone figured out that was what she was doing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Lovejoy, So Cal on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 01:05 am:

I was following this post with much interest, burst out laughing tonight - to funny. Thanks Bob,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 04:39 am:

Peter, if I'm not mistaken, that same story was in one of the "Gus and the Model Garage" series in the old Popular Mechanics magazines back in the early sixties, but it wasn't a Morris Minor<g>. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel D. Chicoine, MD, Pierre, SD on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 09:09 am:

I startled Teresa this morning when I was reading the past several days posts. I dam near choked on my coffee. Thanks, Guys!!! Reminds me of how we used to de-carbon the heads on the cars back in the late 60's. We'd add a gallon of diesel to the tank and drive it, then pour diesel into the carb slowly until we killed the engine. You couldn't see across the farm yard but the cars seemed to run better afterwards.
Noel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 10:04 am:

Pete, that's right out of Gus Wilson's Model Garage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 03:49 pm:

Now the Fordson was designed to run on Kerosene which is similar to Diesel, and several Old Timers years ago told me that they ran Model T's on Kerosene. This was because of the Gas rationing during the war. Does that mean they too smoked badly when running that Kerosene Fuel?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 06:49 pm:

Fred,

Don't know but I do know a lot of stuff back then was made to start on gas, then run on kerosene after it warmed up. My grandfather's F-20 Farmall was like that, as is his 3HP Fairbanks Morse which I still have.

The Fairbanks Morse runs well on gas now but will not run on kerosene at all so I am guessing what they sell now if different than back then?

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 11:27 am:

The more I think about this the more I think Bob was just a little "excited" about a reason to get into his T's engine. Some one else might have gone for a compression test before a tear down and avoided the extra work. "Forget every thing you think you know" was said to me early in my T'ing days but the basics of trouble shooting should not be over looked. Also: Hind sight is 20/20.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Aldrich Orting Wa on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 12:48 pm:

Ironically Bob is the guy that is usually bailing someone else out of T trouble. He's pretty handy with a butter knife... ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 01:08 pm:

Charlie, My old Doctor friend told me in Med school they were taught; "When you hear hoof beats think horses not zebras"


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