Head Light Problem

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Head Light Problem
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Benton, Sherrills Ford, NC on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 08:09 am:

My speedster project is coming along. I have rewired everything and have taken it our for a short test drive. I put in new head light bulbs and tested them on battery and they seamed to work OK at first. I tried Dim and Bright on bat. About 30 seconds after I turned on the brights, both lights went out. When I checked the bulbs both bright fillements were blown. Dim works just fine. Any ideas what would cause this?

Speedser Picture


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 08:18 am:

It would have to be too much voltage. Is the system still a 6V system? If you are running a cutout on your generator and have the charge rate set high then you likely have too much voltage on the bulbs and that will radically shorten their life. Give us more info of the wiring, generator, cutout, observed charging rate on your ammeter...etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 08:28 am:

30 sec. is a very short time for a bulb to blow if the voltage is just a little high.

Any chance you have a 12V battery and 6V bulbs ?

Cheers
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Benton, Sherrills Ford, NC on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 09:01 am:

The system is 6 volt with a 6 volt battery. The generator does have cutout from Langs, Part number 5055 and the charge rate is around 5 amps. The interesting thing is that the car was NOT running when the bulbs blew! I rechecked the wiring and it is all like it should be. I did not check the voltage at the bulb socket. I will do that tonight and see what I am getting. Thanks for any and all comments!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 04:06 pm:

One thing which will blow the headlights fast is an open connection between the generator and the battery. Check all the connections. Most often it is the battery cable to battery connection which is corroded, but it can be a loose connection at the terminal block, the ammeter, the light switch or the starter switch as well. Sometimes the connections are all good, but the connecter is not well crimped or soldered onto the wire itself.

What happens in the above case, is the generator "sees" the battery as dead, and produces high charge. Since the battery is what regulates the voltage output of the generator, when the battery is disconnected, the generator produces the maximum voltage capable and burns out any equipment which is turned on at the time.

As an aside, that is also the reason the generator can charge a 12 volt battery. When it is connected to a 12 volt battery, it puts out 12 volts. When it is connected to a 6 volt battery it puts out 6 volts. This explanation is a bit simplified, but you can understand what is happening if you have a loose or open connection.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 05:22 pm:

Larry:

I respectfully suggest that it would be nearly impossible for a 6V battery to blow both of your headlights without help from your generator running very likely "open" as Norman talked about. Perhaps you had the lights on and were not aware of it. If for instance you had the lights on AND were reading a charge of 5 amps then you very likely had the generator 3rd brush set to absolute max and that would blow your lights. The only other thing that will cause 6V or 12V bulbs to blow is very heavy vibration. If the engine was stopped you really couldn't wire the bulb in any fashion that would instantly burn it out if the bulb was 6V and so was the battery. How many water filler plugs do you count that the battery has?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 07:11 pm:

John, it is probably 6 plugs to correspond to 6 volts. And that would take out the bulbs.
Ha Ha


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 08:39 pm:

Larry - For what it's worth, I have also blown a set of new bulbs. They lasted about the same amount of time. I haven't gotten around to replacing them yet because it's difficult to get off the headlight ring without inevitably losing some paint.

Anyway, I chalked it up to cheapo Chinese bulbs. I think I had gotten them from one of the main part suppliers. I planned on getting a couple pairs of NOS Mazda bulbs over at Hershey this year and giving them a shot.

Dan B


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 09:10 pm:

It may be a third brush set too high...

But one other thing to think about on replacement bulbs...it isn't cheapo Chinese bulbs as such, it's bulbs made in the last 20 years period that sit around a while before use...

There is a glue that binds the glass to the base and the glue goes brittle as if it is nothing more than shellac! Just the act of the twist in breaks the seal and a filament in air is even lucky to last 30 seconds, but you get the joy of about 200cp while it does :-)! Sometimes it is the vibration that breaks the brittle glue line.

I don't chance it anymore...any bulb whether from my stash or NIB from a supplier gets a wicking of super-glue at the mate line, let it dry and then put it in...FWIW.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By M Philpott on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 09:41 pm:

Is it a negitive or positive ground?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Friday, May 04, 2012 - 10:49 pm:

Are we missing something here?

Larry said that the bulbs blew while the car was NOT running, so it would seem that speculation about generator settings isn't relevant to Larry's problem.

With a 6 v battery and 6 v bulbs blowing out in 30 seconds, the only possibility would seem to be defective bulbs.

Made in the USA ? Maybe not!

Cheers
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 02:05 am:

Both bulbs blow at the same time with only the battery? Even if they are Chinese made the odds are not at all likely that both would blow in the time stated unless the bulbs were not 6V bulbs but in fact lower voltage. Something doesn't make sense here and I think there is more to the story somehow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 08:37 am:

Good point John!

But, were there ever any bulbs made that would fit in the T sockets and were rated less than 6V ?

Larry, where did those bulbs come from? Used or NOS or recent manufacture?

schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 11:05 am:

Schuh...

I thought of that too...but looked at my cheat sheet and didn't find any dual filament BA15D at lower voltage. Doesn't answer the question as 'possible'

All...

I retract my comment about a blown seal at globe/base...d'uh...the lowers would have turned into super novas also were that to have happened. Sorry to confuse.....

Larry...

Check the voltage at the socket thimble or the terminal strip for the lights...should be the far screw to the right on the terminal strip if wiring correctly...

You get 6V or so...then I'm sure confused as to why both would blow at the same time! Thats almost a statistical impossibility as a normal failure.

Might want to check the car for how wired as a sanity check? I can't imagine any scenario where if the 'mag' and 'batt' wires were reversed from where they belong as something else actually more drastic would happen...but dumping magneto voltage across 6V lamps would certainly be a short lived lamp! The 'dim' just may survive due to the voltage drop to get the 'dim'. I don't know, chasing ghosts here trying to help....do a voltage check and get back.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 11:41 am:

My guess is that somehow a 12 volt battery got placed in the car. We lose Larry??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 04:17 pm:

I know the bulbs burned out with the engine turned off. One thing I am not complete sure of; Larry did you run the engine at all with the bulbs installed? Did you try turning on the lights while the engine was running? Or did you just install them and then gave them a quick operational test with the engine turned off?
I think I would look at a few items;

1) Check all wire connects for tightness and corrosion.
a) To eliminate corrosion, I like to use a product called Rail-Zip. It is used for model railroad electrical connections (works great!)

2) Label both ends of each wire to confirm that everything is wired correctly. Not all the wiring diagrams out there are correct.

3) If you ran the engine;
a) Ensure that the magneto was not powering the lights (via a miss wiring)
b) Endure you do not have a voltage leak from the higher voltage of the magneto to the lower voltage of the main power. I would suspect the bat/mag switch as a possible culprit in this case.

4) Confirm that you have 6V bulbs
If none of this items are the case. I would then buy two more (cheap) bulbs and try to replicate the scenario.

As John said something does not make sense. Nothing burns out a bulb faster than to high of voltage, ether from a spike or or a wrong voltage supply.

What kind of bulbs where you using? Standard incandescent bulbs are way more forgiving to voltage irregularities than halogen and xenon bulbs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 07:13 pm:

Actually Halogen bulbs typically use the same filament (tungsten) as regular bulbs so they are about the same with regard to transient voltage tolerance and life expectancy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 12:34 am:

John Regan:

Do you have any recommendations on bulbs for a 15 or 16 magneto run T?

A434a


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 12:38 am:

John Regan:

Ishould have said the battery is 6 volt but the once started the cars always runs on mag and the lights are hooked to the Mag.

A424b


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 12:39 am:

John Regan:

Ishould have said the battery is 6 volt but the once started the cars always runs on mag and the lights are hooked to the Mag.

A424b


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 01:01 am:

Dave:

There really is no solution that allows you to keep the car totally "original" since for 15 and 16 Ford did not use the dimmer coil and was convinced that the lights not being able to withstand the widely varying voltage was in fact a bulb quality issue. Ford went so far as to tell the bulb makers exactly how to make the bulbs including filament design, material...etc. Ford's design was no better than any bulb maker nor are modern bulbs any better today since Tungsten just does not like to operate at any voltage even small amounts above the design voltage for the bulb. Below that design voltage the life of the bulb increases dramatically but the brightness falls off dramatically too.

It is dangerous to drive at night with a headlight system that can go instantly totally dark when one bulb burns out thus I would never recommend driving a car in modern conditions with such a system that wires the headlamps in series. I would recommend you wire the headlights in parallel rather than series and use a standard 6V bulb in both head lights. Then use a hot shot type charger to charge the battery during the day and drive at night using the 6V headlamps. That is safe system so long as you have a large enough battery and keep it recharged after a night's driving. That is the system we have hooked to my son's 1916 roadster. The wiring can be made to look totally stock since the difference between series connection and parallel connection can be hidden in the light bulb connector. Unless you drive all night and park all day you can recharge the battery with the diode/bulb magneto powered charger circuit during a days drive. If you drive at night for more than a small amount - just put the charger on the battery when you get home and let your charger recharge the battery. My son's car has a starter on it and with only the small battery/bulb magneto charger, the battery has always been "up" when the car is driven only in the daylight but we do have the lights that work well if and when we need them at night. Re-plated reflectors go a long way to giving you bright headlights.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 03:34 pm:

John Regan:

Thanks, I try not to drive at night but there have been a few times when I didn't make it back before dark.

Stevens Durea Light
Stevens


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 10:16 pm:

Dave, what would you think about trying a lawnmower battery for lights and keeping it charged with a diode and your magneto?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 10:36 pm:

Dave:

The lighting system on my son Johnny's '16 roadster was put on for just that sort of thing - for getting caught across town in an evening. We put a full size group 1 battery in his T and a starter on it too because we have to drive in a fair amount of traffic and if you accidentally kill the motor in the middle of an intersection you have a serious problem if you would have to get out and hand crank start the thing in the middle of that intersection. Before we can get outside of town we have to negotiate a few 4 lane intersections.

We have made no permanent modifications to the car but we do have to be safe and in our area that does not allow the original lighting system to be functionally maintained and the starter too is just a "just in case" thing. Johnny never uses the starter as a matter of pride but it is there if he needs it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 10:42 pm:

Ted Dumas:

I think that may be the 6 volt batteries I have in my 12 and my 16 now. I use them to start the car and then run on mag. They seem to go on forever. I charge them about every 6 months. I think when I get some time to do it I will try John Regan's idea of running the lights in parallel off the battery. When I got my Montana 500 racer it had a mag diode charger set up. I still have it and think I might try it on my 16 which is my daily driver and go to the mountains driver. Both batteries in the 12 and 16 are interstate batteries so I think that is why they last so long without charging.

I do have good reflectors.

A922


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 01:06 am:

John Regan:

I know what you mean about stalling in an intersection. Every time I stepped on the brake I kicked the key and shut the motor off. Finally I saw in the Forum where someone mentioned he put his key in upside down so that he didn't kick it. I tried it for the last month and have not kicked the switch off since.

1916 Coil Box


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 07:30 am:

Dave:

Funny you should mention that. My son reported the exact same problem and also the exact same "fix" ha ha.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Benton, Sherrills Ford, NC on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 08:43 am:

Sorry Guys, I was away for the weekend, but am now back. I want to say thanks for all the input so far. The new bulbs came from Smith and Jones. I picked them up at the Auto fair in Charlotte the other week. The battery is a 6 volt battery, (with 3 water fill holes). I checked the battery voltage and it is 6 volt output. I installed the bulbs and checked them before I put the lens covers back on. They did not go at the same time, but rather the right one went out first, when it went out I pulled the bulb and checked it with an Ome meter. The low beam filament was still good , but the high beam was out. You could see the filament burned in half. I chalked it up to a bad bulb, put it back in and then re-checked the other side. When I turned it on it too went out. I know this sounds strange and that is why I ask you guys for help! The engine was never running. I did not even turn it over while this was going on. In fact I did not even turn the key on, not that that would have made any difference. I checked the voltage at the socket this weekend and I am getting 6 volts to that side of the bulb. I have checked everything I can think of. I believe it is really down to just bad bulbs. I will get new ones on order and install them and let all of you know how it goes. Thanks for all your help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 10:20 am:

Larry:

Sounds pretty hard to believe but based on your measurements and analysis - 2 bad bulbs in a row is the only conclusion possible. Since very small voltage differences have a lot to do with bulb life - next time you measure the voltage - check to give the exact reading on the meter like 6.3 or 6.0 or whatever fractional amount you are reading since that might be a clue. Good luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 11:39 am:

This is a possible conclusion from personal experience. 38 years ago when we had finished building this house and moved in, I went to a large discount store and bought light bulbs for it. I screwed them all in and when we turned on the lights we had many that didn't work. I called my electrician and complained that there must be something wrong with the wiring, because many of the lights didn't work. He came out and he did find one loose connection, but that only affected one light. The others were bad bulbs. Now these were GE bulbs, not some off brand made in China. My conclusion was that someone had dropped a case of bulbs prior to our purchase, and since we had bought them all at the same time, we got bulbs with broken filaments. That is possibly what happened to your lamps, especially if you bought them from a mail order supplier. Maybe they got dropped somewhere in transportation.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 11:53 am:

I think these are bad bulbs. It sounds like the manufacturer forgot to remove the oxygen from the bulb or that they were leaking right from the factory. If I remember right the filament has a coating that when first lit removes the oxygen from within the bulb. Oxygen is what makes the filaments burn out. This might be the issue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 02:18 pm:

There are many incorrect wiring diagrams out there. If you used one to wire your car, you may want to double check the wiring with Ron Patterson's wiring diagram which is the final word on correct wiring. Jim Patrick



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Benton, Sherrills Ford, NC on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 02:53 pm:

Thanks for the input guys! Jim, the wiring diagram you show is the one I used to wire the car. I got if from Ron early on and it was really a lot of help. I will get new bulbs and give it another go. I will take readings before I install the bulbs to make sure all voltages are correct! Thanks again for the input! Will let you know if the problem continues.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 12:12 pm:

Jim, I looked at that wiring diagram and it may be correct for most cars, but I have an unrestored 1921 touring "Poor Boy Special" and I am sure it is not wired as that 1919 to 1927 diagram shows.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 09:51 pm:

If by "poor boy special" you mean your car is the non electric car without starter or generator then yes your car is wired different and there is a different diagram for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Sunday, May 27, 2012 - 09:28 pm:

Larry - any update on the bulb issue? Still having the same problem with my headlights.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Knoll on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 01:40 pm:

Just a note on Larry's bulb issue in May : I had the same exact experience 3 or 4 weeks ago when I finished my rewire . It really had me scratching my head till I put in new old stock bulbs.....then, no problem. I'm convinced it was the made in China Bulbs ..... Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 03:53 pm:

Not to steal this thread but I am fed up with the cheap Chicom electrical equipment coming our way. In the last 6 months I have experienced two catastrophic failures. First one was a CFL bulb that suddenly burst into flames in its base after about ten minutes of use. The second was a GFI plug that went to ground internally after about one week in service. Fortunately the GFI tripped the house breaker before catching fire but filled the room with acrid smoke before it did. Funny thing is the GFI never tripped itself.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 06:32 pm:

John S,
I was lucky. My CFL burst into flame instantly after installing it while I was right there to prevent further damage. It did manage to destroy the lamp fixture, however.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 08:49 pm:

Just for clarity. The CFL bulb is probably NOT what burned but rather the ballast device used to limit the current to the bulb after it strikes. The so SCREW IN type CFL bulbs are in fact a combo unit of CFL and ballast. The CFL itself is essentially a fluorescent bulb and won't burn. I built my Victorian style new house in 1989 and used all CFL ceiling cans and specially built chandeliers as well. These used remote ballasts that were substantial ballasts and I never have had a single ballast failure and most of the PLC-13 type CFL bulbs have lasted well beyond 6 years each. Some of them are in fact still original bulbs. The screw in type CFL bulbs are not what I have and I don't think those are very reliable or wonder too if they are as efficient since skimping on the ballast design can result in too much CFL bulb current which shortens their life drastically. My CFL bulbs are straight pin plug ins and the ballast is not part of the bulb which of course makes the bulb cheaper.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Sunday, August 26, 2012 - 09:13 pm:

Surprised no one has mentioned air in the bulb as a possibility. If the insides of the bulb went white and filled with smoke, then that's the cause.
I've seen this lots of times - usually low voltage bulbs that come from a foreign place.
In fact recently I ordered a carton of 32V bulbs for a work project - about a third of them had the filaments burn up soon as they were tested.
No cracks were visible so I put it down to the metal/glass seals being imperfect, or they just weren't evacuated correctly.

If the filament simply went open circuit with no smoke then that's a voltage problem (not possible in this situation as the car wasn't running), or the filament was so cheap and nasty to start with.


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