Would anyone know the difference in these two castings or what year they would be correct for and how many years the 3 Dip Oil Pan was used and the same.
I was always told the more rivets the earlier they where, Henry figured out later he did not need as many to do the same job.
I have a wide nose snout casting that only has two holes like the one on the right. I am guessing they didn't put the holes in the sides so you could get they drilled in the correct place. Sorry no help on the age.
James,
My 16 engine has eight rivets in its nose casting. I also have a 15 crank case with eight. Both show cracks in the front, where the crankcase metal folds over the casting but neither seem to involve the front rivet holes.
Bottom Line Up Front: That style crank case front end support was used with variations from the introduction of the removable inspection plate crankcase during 1911 to the introduction of the wider front engine crankcase pan during 1917.
Additional details:
Below are the change dates for the part number 3069 Crank Case front end support which was factory number 801. The earlier 801B that was used with the one piece crack case is not shown. Information from Bruce’s “Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia” and his Price List of Parts on the same CD set. Available from the vendors such as Lang’s see: http://www.modeltford.com/item/MTE-CCD.aspx and well worth the investment. Information is also on line at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/E.htm#eng8 (for the factory numbers 801C scroll down on that web page).
11-29-07 T801A C.C. support front end, first 2500
12-22-08 T801B C.C. front end, second 2500
02-24-09 T801C—C.C. support; added 1” hole and two
cavities on either side.
03-11-09 T1526C— C.C. assy. Short T801 and forged T899B
03-20-13 T801C—C.C. support front end. Shortened length
from 6-27/32 to 5-3/4”. Replaced 1” hole with 5/8”
radius notch. [Hap’s comment – this is the support you are showing – and it was a revision to the T801C that was introduced back in 1909]
Note some time during 1917 anticipate 801D was introduced for the wide front pan. I did not see a date for that introduction in Bruce’s Encyclopedia. But it was noted under the price list of parts as occurring in 1917.
03-11-19 T801D—C.C. support front end. Specified Ford
script to be forged in part.
01-27-24 T801E—C.C. front end support for 4-dip pan
Note none of the 8 or 10 photos I looked at showed the 801C with only the two holes drilled in it. Jim – could you examine it and let us know if you think it was never installed or if it shows signs of wear from years of the Hand crank being turned? It would have been installed originally on a non-starter engine since it was replace in 1917, unless it was installed as a replacement part. And even then it should show wear from the crank moving back and forth as the car was driven.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Just to confirm what Hap said, I have several 11-12 pans on motors and none of them uses the pictured front end casting. The difference mainly is that the top of the casting on the early one is a complete round hole (1") while the pictured casting has the "notch" as described in the production release info that Bruce presented.
Here is another one used in the 1914-17 era Crankcase Support. This one looks like it had been replaced. Does anyone have any more info on this one?
In the mid 1990's I did a massive article on the evolution of the crankcase for the Vintage Ford it never went into print. all linked to records of changes to the crank case (via trent Boggess). If there is any interest I will download the whole article on the Forum. Something like 76 photographs.
Mark Herdman
Mark,
Yes, we would be very interested in your research/article. Often times the "Vintage Ford" and other magazines have that "feast" or "famine" experience. Many times they want/need short half to 4 page articles that appeal to many readers. But they sometimes have so many articles that some will not be published or in the case of your article -- I suspect it was much longer than 4 pages and they just never were able to easily fit it in. [As an editor for a very very small magazine once I remember it was not only the topic, the appeal, but also how many pages did I need to fill -- that made the difference between the one page article or the half page or 3 page article being selected.] And at other times they are begging/looking for something to put into the magazine that is the correct length.
For you and others with similar articles/research on items of specialized interest or general interest, I believe we need to capture those efforts so they are not lost. In general it is often easier/quicker for someone to build on previous research than to start from scratch. Temporarily I am sort of an “unofficial holding point for T reference things" until we figure out a more appropriate long term solution. Since the forum also has the 200kb photo size limit (closer to 195 for my computer) would you please consider making it available in a Word file or PDF and we can figure out how to make it were folks could down load it?
I'll need to look and see if I can find additional information on the photo you posted – and I’ll let you know if I do or do not find anything.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
Mark -- I expect that Jay and his new assistant editor would be glad to have your article now. When I composed the article about the Hucks Starter truck a few issues ago, I wrote the text and sent Jay lots of pics to choose from. He reproduced the text as written, and included enough pics to illustrate the story. (I think he did a great job of compiling the whole thing, by the way.)
Anyway, it is difficult to fill a magazine such as ours without lots of participation from folks submitting material for articles, so I suggest that you try sending it in again.