Magneto Power

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Magneto Power
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 06:35 pm:

How much "power" can a magneto output? I know this is variable based on magneto strength and engine RPM. As I recall the magneto outputs in the range of 4 volts at a slow idle and about 30 volts at full RPM.

How much "power" does a stock ignition system require to operate efficiently.

I would like to determine how much power is left over that could be used of other things like charging a 12V accessory battery or run other accessories

Wattage

Thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 07:10 pm:

The last term in your equation above should be amps squared multiplied by Ohms rather than Amps squared divided by Ohms.

The coil box draws about 4 watts of power when the engine is running on 6V battery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Saturday, May 05, 2012 - 11:53 pm:

On my hand crank, none starter, 1917 Touring I have a simple battery charger consisting of a diode and a 12V 18W lamp in series with the battery. The diode ensures the battery only receives positive power and the lamp limits the current to about 1 amp. This keeps the battery topped up so I can crank using the BAT switch position and then switch to MAG once it is running. I installed this following a Tinkering Tips note about 20 years ago. No ill effects so far.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 02:36 am:

There exist completed ready to go units that can charge and maintain a small 12V supply.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 10:12 am:

I saw John Regan's Fun Projects six volt Hot Shot battery and charger system. But I have not noticed any other magneto charger system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 10:26 am:

Jason:

The charger kit you mention will also charge a 12V battery but since the amount of charge current is dependent upon the difference in peak voltage of the magneto minus the battery voltage, you will in fact get slightly more charge current when using it with a 6V battery versus a 12V battery. With daytime driving and occasional starting of the T using a starter and magneto driving the rest of the time, the charger will typically keep an onboard battery fully charged. You will however be operating at a charge deficit if you turn on the lights. That presents no problem unless your battery is small since you can recharge the battery when you get home. On a tour, the next days daytime driving will typically recharge the battery. This is what my son uses in his '16 roadster.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 12:15 pm:

OK, so how many watts is a good T magneto capable of putting out? I suppose, if I had an AC ammeter I could calculate it, but I don't. Wouldn't you have to load it to its max in order to measure it? One could measure the resistance of the coil, but wouldn't you need to resistance of the added load too? Say for instance we did the 1156 light bulb test. We would then have a voltage to plug into the above formula. We would then only need the resistance. Would that be the resistance of just the bulb or the bulb plus the mag ring? Also how do we measure the resistance of the bulb while it is burning? Isn't that figure significantly higher than than the resistance of the bulb when it is not burning?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 12:47 pm:

Hal:

There is a rule that says to get the maximum amount of power transfer you need to match the load impedance to the source impedance. Impedance is AC resistance in total. Since power is I x I x R you need to measure the AC current as you lower the AC resistance and for each increment you then calculate power. At some point you will see that the calculation starts to provide a smaller power number than the previous calculation and at that point you will know how much power there is from the magneto. The problem comes in because when you change the RPM you then get to do the whole incremental thing again for the new RPM. Further complicating the thing is that no 2 magnetos are going to be exactly the same nor even perhaps typically the same. Now you know why Ford didn't publish any specifications on the amount of power or even minimum voltage that the magneto would put out. Too many variables. Someone enterprising enough can probably get you to a vague "typical" number but it will vary with RPM and changing load. To get the maximum power out of the magneto at all times you need a dynamic load device that changes its impedance with changing magneto output so as to always load it for maximum power recovery...or.... just get a diode and bulb and keep it simple. In the final analysis its just a Model T Ford!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 04:33 pm:

Hal
The generally accepted number for a correctly operating Model T magneto is approximately 200 Watts.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 07:36 pm:

Thanks guys. I have to say that is a lot more than I would have thought. And yes, I can see now how that would make calculating it difficult.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 11:14 pm:

I have a 6 volt system (generator, starter and battery). I am looking at options via adding a 2nd battery to run 12 volt (led?) turn signals, brake lights. In addition to running maybe a GPS or power a cell phone. I figured headlights would continue to run off the 6 volt system.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 12:03 am:

Run another 6V battery in series with the one you have for lighting and other accessories. You won't have to change a thing on the car except move your lighting supply wire to the 2nd battery.
You'll have to charge it now and then but with the amount of juice you need you could probably run weeks between charges.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 12:19 am:

For most cell phones, GPS and other modern devices you may NOT need 12 V!
The battery inside the device is typically 3,6V or 4,8V and that can be charged OK by the 7,2V you have on a Model T with an operating generator.

My vintage HP iPAQ 6915 cell phone may last a whole day operating as GPS where the draw of power is huge, connected to the system.

Nokia phones charge just fine.

So give it a try before you start doing a lot of extra wiring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug - Braidwood (glow in the dark), IL on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 11:32 pm:

I find it interesting that a generator puts out 100 watts and a magneto puts out 200 watts with no moving parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Hughes, Raymond, NE on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 12:18 am:

No moving parts? What do you consider those big honkin' magnets whirling around in there?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug - Braidwood (glow in the dark), IL on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 09:43 am:

Yes, I know, but they are attached to the flywheel and the flywheel has to spin. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 12:06 pm:

Gauss is to magnetism as Volts is to electricity.

I just bought a new meter that measured a magnet's strength.

Previously, I determined or estimated from measuring old magnets that about 350 Gauss was required to lift a 2 pound piston or other weight.

I recently had the opportunity to measure the magnets on an engine that was running with a good Mag output and the average value was 180 Gauss on those 16 magnets.

To test my new meter, I grabbed a random sample magnet that Paul Vitko had sent to me (with the ends flattened and polished) and it measured -324 and + 326 on the two poles. It held the 2 pound weight with a strong attachment.

I also measured and averaged the values on one of my HCCTs that was working and then charged the magnets. I have not done the new measurement calculations yet.

My new Gauss tester. Has anyone else tried one of them?

Tester


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 12:23 pm:

James ; Please can you put some pictures on the Forum, so that we can see how you work with your Gauss meter ??
Thanks
Toon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 12:37 pm:

If you are looking to measure the Gauss of your magnets and want a great little meter, this meter was developed by my family, to support my fathers hobby (slot car racing), but I though it might be useful for measuring the magneto magnets.

http://gravitastech.weebly.com/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 02:54 pm:

Joe, I like it! That unit looks better than the one I bought. I might have to get one before your rush starts. How do I order one?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 02:55 pm:

Toon, I'll get you some picture by tomorrow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 09:33 am:

Has anyone tried one of Joe Van's meters?

There are two problems here, Joe Van sounds like an alias and I have to buy one with PayPay, which I refuse to use and I do not trust.

Then too, they look too simple to work.

Well there is another problem, his website and MTFCA Forum profile has no information about his location, phone number, etc. and it was supposedly built by a professional group.

There are also no pointers in the website meta data that would allow a person to find that website by doing a search for Joe Van.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 11:14 am:

Jim - Joe Van says he's from StLouis, MO - same town as Dick Lodge, and Dick's the man for authenticity checking :-)

Another question on the magneto - 200w in there.. then I would like to drop the generator and find a way to charge a battery with as much power as possible from the magneto..
I'm not using the magneto for ignition (high voltage magneto) so I can use all of it if possible.. Seth Harbuck built a few magneto chargers that was said to give more power to the battery than the usual Fun Projects single diode + bulb type some years ago, but Seth seems to have vanished from the net?
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40928.html?1196459186
Anyone who understands electrics and wants to describe how much Seths design would charge a 6 volt battery? Enough for night driving?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 11:21 am:

OK, you are right, it is sort of an alias, I truncated my last name, as I don't like to give out that much information on an open forum online. It's a dutch name.

My profile should clearly indicate that I am located in Saint Louis, MO: but there I said it for you. If you want to talk about the meter further, I am willing to discuss it via private email or by telephone.

I kind of though this would draw some eyes, as it is my first post and I am plugging a product (my fault, but I wanted to chime in while this was till a topic of discussion). Sorry to cause any trouble.

My family is comprised of engineers, mechanical, electrical, chemical, and automotive. this was hashed out over Christmas 2011 when we were all together. the board was designed by our electrical engineer and sent to a company in Oregon to have the printed circuit board made, thus giving it a very professional look. But, would you expect less from a group of engineers.

I am new to model T's. I have always wanted one, and hope to have one soon. I currently own a 1971 Pinto, but have always enjoyed the 20's and 30's much more than the 70's. I figured I should start with the every man's car before moving up to one of the 3 P's (Packard, Peerless, Pierce-Arrow)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 12:44 pm:

OK. Nobody buy anything from Joe until Dick can take him for a ride.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 03:16 pm:

Roger:

The difference between Seth's idea and the charger I sell is that Seth's device is not designed to work with coils since it will clip off most of the positive half cycle of power out of the magneto. He just used 4 diodes in series rather than one in order to be able to sense current flow and thus turn on his LED. The lack of a current limiting device like a bulb means that all available power is taken from the magneto except for what is deliberately tosses away with the extra diodes that are not necessary. That throws away a bit of power but the main thing that I worried about with this thing is that a shorted diode will connect the battery then directly to the magneto post thus discharging the magnets and burning the magneto coil ring. I implored him to at least advise people to put a fuse inline to protect the magneto coil ring from burning up since if you use a 12V battery and the diode shorts then you have 48 amps through the coil ring. He thought it was much to do about nothing. In the case of the diode and bulb, the bulb acts to limit the magneto coil ring current immediately if the diode shorts and nothing bad happens to the magneto since there is no large current at all because the bulb limits the current both ways. It limits the charge current to allow the coils to run on magneto at the same time but then also limits the trauma current from battery to magneto if the diode shorts. The reason this is very important is that diodes ALWAYS fail shorted. They do not fail open unless they first short and then there is sufficient current to explode them to open.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 07:35 pm:

Why was I even suspect of Joe?

I was not so much suspect as I was trying to point out why I was suspect and why everyone else would be as well.

If a person does not trust me enough to provide me with his true name, address or phone number, I certainly have no reason to trust him enough to do any business with him.

There have been many MTFCA Forum notes about scam e-mails from people trying to scam sellers that use the classified ads. One of the first clues in a scam letter is the poor English and sentence structure.

There is another website that allows a person to check a website for free, either their own or another website, for the equivalent of poor English in the HTML or XHTML program code that is used to display the web page.

Joe’s website can be located at http://gravitastech.weebly.com/ and he offered that information about his Magnetometer in the forum.

Joe’s website is actually just a gravitastech Folder on the Weebly website.

Go to http://weebly.com/ and their homepage notes:

The easiest way to create a website

Free, Powerful and Professional.

Go to http://validator.w3.org/ and type or paste http://gravitastech.weebly.com/ into the white box and click Check to see how good or professional the Weebly company is for building webpages.

This is what you get there:

Webpage


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 03:06 pm:

Toon, I did not forget you, but it is very difficult to hold the sensor with one hand and operate the camera with my other hand.

I am going to charge these magnets again and repeat the measurements. I'll get pictures of that procedure then.

The one strange fact is that the two magnets working together produce a lower reading than the separate magnet poles.

The average value of the pole pieces was 194.8 when measured across the center edge areas.

The average values were - 307 and + 302 for this magnet end measurement.

Measurement


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 03:49 pm:

Here we go again. James, I do not think you are fair. I know there are multi-billion enterprises in the US who spend millions in maintaining there website and hosts them at IBM.

They all have had to start small and small companies or one-man enterprises can't use millions of $$$ on websites!

Joe have just explained above the background of his device. Paypal is owned by e-Bay which are a pretty large enterprise who lives on trust among other things and Paypal is a very cheap and easy and hence attractive way for one-man or small enterprises to support payment by cards.

Your test shows nothing! Try to validate John Regans Funproject website - or even mighty www.ibm.com. They both fails.

Its a free world. You are not obliged to trade with Joe, but you are neither obliged to miscredit him the way you did above.

Just my 0.02$


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 06:28 pm:

Michael, I did not intend to discredit Joe and wrote him a note to that effect.

You missed my main point altogether, which was he will not get many sales unless he provides more information on his website.

My other point was that website was done as a free service, but it had so many errors in the HTML Code, which if anyone looks, as I did, they would suspect it might be a scam site and not buy the product.

I have talked to a few people that sell or used to sell on e-bay. The penalty is so stiff for negative comments that many have dropped e-bay altogether. If you are my competitor, all I have to do is buy one of your items and provide negative comments to make it too expensive for you to continue to sell on e-bay.

I have learned more about e-bay the hard way, and still think it is a buyers market and very unfair to sellers, so I have never sold anything on e-bay. My lessons cost me over $500 in merchandize never received, so I am paid in full with e-bay and do not wish to pay PayPal at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 05:22 pm:

Michael, you will be happy to know that I was able to mail a check today for a Joe Van meter and I did not have to use PayPal to get the meter, which makes me feel much better now.

The meters are back in stock, if you want to play at magnet charging and measure your success.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 07:42 pm:

I will be interested to learn how it works out for the magneto magnets. best of luck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 08:07 pm:

Joe, you will be the first to know.

I do not envision any problems though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, May 26, 2012 - 11:28 am:

Joe Van, here is my apology now!

My Gaussmeter arrived in the mail today and works as advertised.

I have already tested it and love it!!!

It is very compact and very cleverly made!!!

If anyone would like to know how fully their magnets are charged, this is an excellent device for that purpose.

How high the magnets will read has not been determined yet.

I have a test magnet that Paul Vitko sent to me and this unit measures very close to the same numbers as my other meter. The magnet ends have been polished some, but it securely holds a piston and measures 330 Gauss.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van on Saturday, May 26, 2012 - 07:48 pm:

James,
thanks. It's nice to get that all sorted out now.

on another note, I am now a model T owner. I purchased a 1927 touring. I'll start a thread about it, once I get it at my house, as I have lots of things to learn.


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