Water circulating

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Water circulating
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Markham on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 05:58 pm:

Sometimes after climbing hills or pushing the car a little I get a few drops of water coming out the radiator cap and when you stop and listen to it the water is kind of bubbling and making a rolling noise in the radiator,it don't seem hot enough to be boiling can it be just circulating faster because it is hotter and no thermostat or water pump to constrict the flow?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 06:07 pm:

I think that's just normal circulation. I have a new flat tube and mine will do it also except I've not had any overflow or weeping around the cap since I put it on.....not after its found its level of fill anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 06:17 pm:

Probably just steam rising and escaping through a poorly fitting rad. cap gasket. Water couldn't possibly be that high without a clogged over flow pipe any way. (it isn't blocked, is it?).
They'll percolate and bubble for a bit after shut down. Especially after a hard run.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Markham on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 06:50 pm:

Mine is missing the radiator cap gasket, just puts out a few drops but just was wondering about the rumbling water pretty sure its not boiling


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 07:00 pm:

I don't run a motometer, so I kinda like it bubbling up when it's working hard. It lets me know where I stand. My old radiator didn't have a place for a gasket under the cap. When I got my new Berg's radiator, I thought about putting a gasket in it, but decided against it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Ida Fls on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 07:03 pm:

I had a cap with a 1/4" hole drilled in the top and when you came to a stop a stream of water would shoot into the air. It was a good indicator of the pressure in the radiator.
Every T seems to act a little different heat-wise. Some like to push a gallon of water out first thing. Some are just happy all the time. There are lots of variables.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Sunday, May 06, 2012 - 07:19 pm:

John,

This is why some of us refer to it affectionately as 'thermo-barf'.

Under normal conditions, the concept of hot water and cold(er) water densities cause a natural circulation and no water pump is required. Part of that 'schtick' is based on the circulation getting faster as the engine gets hotter. An average Model T might circulate at 185-190 degrees provided you spark it right and rich/lean it right...get one the other or both wrong and it will boil as you can see there isn't a lot of room.

Now, get the iron good and warm and then stop? As the engine 'sits' and the radiator 'sits' the transfer through the radiator slows since forced air convection cooling adds about 2-3 times the cooling as static... at 185-195, and you stop you disrupt the harmony and the water gets hotter...

No problem, that's where the glug-glug comes from and the 'barf' in 'thermo-barf' The water is getting too hot in the head and jacket, the circulation has slowed down, and it 'glugs' into the top tank rather than flows and becomes volume displacement rather than full circulating.

This is part of the reason why a T always seeks its own coolant level and the extra just spews forth. Make sure your overflow tube is 'open', let it find its own level, buy one of those toilet gaskets to put under your cap if you don't want the occasional weep dribble flying back at you and your paint...and it will be fine.

Hill climbing also usually requires more careful attention to 'advance' and 'fuel rich/lean' as with but maybe 15-20 degrees to 'play' with to begin with as room for temp rise...there is not too much room and a shortcoming in either just goes and adds heat even though the same settings might not cause you issue on the flats.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 11:46 am:

You will build some heat during a long pull. Both of my cars do the same thing. Several times we have gone on a tour where we pull a long low-pedal hill and then stop at a park at the top of the hill for a rest. If I park and shut the car off, it boils and "barfs" but if I go around the block or let it idle a few minutes so that there is some airflow through the radiator, it doesn't do it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 05:14 pm:

"Part of that 'schtick' is based on the circulation getting faster as the engine gets hotter."

The only numbers I could find, George, don't jibe with your statement.

This chart has room for improvement, but it's all I could find.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 05:29 pm:

The curve become steeper the higher the temperature. That would imply a greater difference in density. Would that not increase the flow rate?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, May 07, 2012 - 06:20 pm:

Ralphie,


Somehow when I used the 'barf' word in my first post...I knew the 'father' of 'thermo-barf' would be around somewhere...lol

Between Frankie and his spelling / grammar, and you with your technical semantics...me thinks it might be time to get that well water checked! No...only kidding, glad you guys are exactly who you are...

You are correct, as water gets hotter it gets 'lighter' by a wee bit...in a single dimension static 'look', and that could be argued to say the waterfall effect and gravity does the pushing...

But oh you who doesn't even use a fan on his T and drives I-5 at freeway speeds :-) that forced air going through the radiator core is sucking heat out 2-3 (and possibly even 4 times at I-5 speeds) as fast as a regular static radiation would be, so it is making the lower water more dense faster and therefore also pushing the lighter water UP faster. The lighter the upper water,with more dense lower water, the more push, ergo the more natural circulation.

OK, so semantically, I did it again...result of an East Coast Mid-Atlantic Education and upbringing...(knew I should have gone away for college...the wife did, she learned a lot so I have an 'in-house' RCA 'Nipper' look at some of what I say or how said to even her...and the reason my own staff always include a Journalism major graduate which no-one ever understood why...) :-)

I used 'hotter' and if I spent the morning I could prob find a way to define it to work semantically, but then I would have to use 'wudder' in my explanation to define it because we don't know what 'wha'-'ter' is :-) :-)

Just joshing guys...luv ya both and your comments and expertise and willingness to crash through glass ceilings.

The right use of semantics, apologies to all...the faster you go...the faster it wants to circulate....'relative' density (can't pluralize, the Forum spell checker doesn't like any of my attempts)and differences in 'relative' density providing the 'push'

Does that work?

p.s.-That other little project? Due this week!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, May 08, 2012 - 03:03 pm:

A 100 degree F, a 2 mile 6% grade with a signal at the top will cause your symptoms. Run your coolant level to the Ford script on the front of the radiator, and it is less likely to barf.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 09:13 am:

Thanks for the compliments, George. It helps to be left handed.

Let's say, for sake of common understanding, that the engine heats the water by 100 degrees (F):

With 100 degree OAT, Outside Air Temp, the bottom of the rad will be at 100, and the water coming into the top at 200.

With 40 degrees OAT, the bottom of the rad will be at 40, and the water coming into the top at 140, which is too cool, and a cause of fouling, poor economy, etc.

That's why I use a 180 thermostat. The waterpump is for my comfort...

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 09:16 am:

Just mebbe this is why all modrens use a thermostat?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 09:27 am:

Ralf-

The "extrapolation" portion of your density chart is only 50% correct..
At 100 C the density of water drops significantly unless it is under pressure - which does not happen it a Model T.

It is called Steam!





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 09:34 am:

Help an ignorant newbie understand something.

The circulation is from the bottom of the radiator, up through the block (as the block heats it) and then into the radiator through the upper radiator hose and finally as it cools, down through the radiator.

Have I got it right ?

Thanks
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 10:49 am:

Bud,

Yes. The hot water rises out of the top of the engine and in doing so siphons water from the bottom of the tank into the block. This siphon effect is why you have to have the metal tube in the lower connection - if it were connected only with hose the hose would collapse from the strength of the siphon on it.

As the water in the radiator cools is moves to the bottom as it is more dense than the hot water.

That help?

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 11:04 am:

Steve,
In the original thermal siphon system there is never any negative pressure on the lower hose. I think the reason for the metal tube is that it cost less then a full length hose. I have seen T's with no metal tube and a full length hose with no problem. If a big water pump was used that may change.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, May 09, 2012 - 03:11 pm:

I agree Jim. It is a misconception that hot air or water rises through some mysterious force. It's being pushed up by cooler air or water. Some may say this is just symantics, but the water in the engine doesn't rise because it gets hot. The water in the radiator falls because it gets cool. Gravity is what is doing the work. The cooler, therefore more dense, water then forces the warmer, less dense water in the engine upwards. I'm guessing there is actually more pressure in the lower hose than the upper one, by about 1 psi or so.


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