Antifreeze warning

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Antifreeze warning
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:04 am:

Recently in a discussion of cooling Stan posted this from the ACD club newsletter. Like a lot of pasted copy, it had several superfluous breaks and lacked a couple of necessary breaks. For those who would like to keep a copy, here's the improved version:

Information was published in the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Club Newsletter concerning the use of “extended life” antifreeze in cars over 10 years old. In a nutshell--don’t do it!
Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should an “Extended Life” antifreeze, which utilizes Organic Additive Technology (OAT, H-OAT, or N-OAT) as one of its chemicals, ever be used in our cars over 10 years old. It attacks the gaskets and gasket cements in our cars, causing major leaks and forcing ultra-expensive repairs. The “Silver Ghost Association” Rolls Royce people have documented massive cooling system failures apparently caused by this anti-freeze product. Antifreeze that can be used safely in our cars uses older-fashioned Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT) additive.
You cannot tell by the color of the antifreeze if it’s safe to use.
Also, the product may be labelled “Safe for Older Cars”--meaning 10 years old at most. Brands to be AVOIDED are all Prestone lines and Zerex’s G-05 in the Gold-color container. Avoid any “extended-life” antifreeze.
None of us wants to pull and rebuild our cars’ engines.
Acceptable brands are Peak, Peak’s HD Product “Sierra,” and Zerex Original Green in the WHITE container.
If any of the OAT, H-OAT, or N-OAT products are in your car the cooling system should promptly be drained--radiator and block-- the system flushed thoroughly, and IAT antifreeze installed.
So what’s cooling your antique car ...IAT or OAT type antifreeze? What’s the difference, you ask? To be honest, most people don’t realize there were different types of antifreeze compounds and just shop for brands and price.They figure it’s all the same stuff just different colors.
Well, there IS a difference and it DOES matter to all of us that have water cooled antiques.
We need to avoid using OAT type antifreeze. Even though it is designed for a longer service life, we shouldn’t use it. It includes an inhibitor that attacks silicone compounds that are frequently used in gasket sealants. In addition, this formula also goes after lead based products like solder and babbit (used in early bearings), some yellow metals that may be in cam bearings and radiators, and conventional gasket and seal type packing materials. Our old rides may contain some, or all, of these materials so using OAT formula antifreeze could result in an expensive headache down the road. We need to be looking for IAT type antifreeze to protect and preserve our investments.
Rather than spending hours and hours doing research to go into more detail, our time is better spent using the internet to gather useful information written by folks much more knowledgeable than we are. If you want to know more, check out the links below.
Hemmings antifreeze article • Popular Mechanics • Motor Age Article • Another Motor Age Article
AACA Forum on the subject • AACA Forum on Extended life antifreeze
URGENT WARNING--EXTENDED LIFE ANTI-FREEZE

IAT type antifreeze products to seek out
IAT or Inorganic Acid Technology
Ethylene glycol based, lasts for 3 years or 36K miles, color = green
Peak, Peak HD Sierra, Zerex Original

OAT or Organic Acid Technology [to avoid]
Propylene glycol based good for 3-5 years, color = orange or yellow (less poisonous than IAT)
Anything labeled “extended life” or “extended service”, Dex-Cool (GM brand), Zerex G-05, Zerex Asian Vehicle, Most Prestone products
HOAT or Hybrid Organic Acid Technology
color = yellow or, possibly, green, pink, blue, red or orange


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:10 am:

Whew!!! I use a 50:50 mixture of Peak Zerex IAT, purchased from NAPA, which was recommended to me on the Forum in 2010. I recently checked it using a pH test strip and it registered an 8 which is perfect. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike bartlett Oviedo,Fl on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 11:03 am:

Good info,thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 04:49 pm:

Ethylene Glycol here too......I buy the cheapest antifreeze I can get.......gotta love Fleet Farm....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 04:56 pm:

Think twice about the cheapest ethylene glycol brands, they usually have no water pump lube or corrosion control additives, hence the cheap, check what you are buying.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 06:26 pm:

Fleet's antifreeze has everything all the others do.......except the price....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tman - Right Coast on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 07:21 pm:

We don't need no stinkin anti freeze
We don't need no stinkin anti freeze


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 07:41 pm:

Water pump? What water pump?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tman - Right Coast on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 07:50 pm:

ANTI-RUST
With


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug - Braidwood (glow in the dark), IL on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:31 pm:

I run distilled water and the above mentioned anti-rust.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Adams on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:49 pm:

There seems to be some additional good information from about 1/3 the way down starting at quota #6 (over to the right) on this AACA webpage.

http://forums.aaca.org/f162/urgent-warning-extended-life-anti-freeze-292163.html

Gene in Virginia Beach


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Orlando Ortega Jr. on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 11:15 pm:

I'm using Prestone 50/50, what's commonly stocked everywhere. Should I not be using this?

Orlando


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 01:27 am:

So is this not good to have in my T?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 06:38 am:

James,

That is OK but you are getting ripped off when you buy pre-mixed anti freeze. You are better off buying full strength Prestone ethylene glycol. You can use one gallon of it and then fill the car the rest of the way with water, providing you don't live somewhere it is below zero F during most of the year. Be sure not to over fill, you waste coolant and make a mess by doing so. The level of coolant needs to be several inches below the radiator cap, about the bottom of the word "FORD" on the radiator works well on brass cars.

I check the anti freeze level in my cars before every drive but seldom need to add any water or anti freeze. I check the anti freeze strength every fall in all the cars. If the anti freeze strength is low then add anti freeze. If the anti freeze strength is excessively strong then I would add water only to achieve the desired level of protection.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 08:19 am:

If you read the ingredients on the Prestone above and compare it to the Wal-Mart house brand, you'll see they have the same stuff in them. The difference is the price, with Super Tech being several dollars less. I agree with Royce about the 50/50 being a ripoff, whatever the brand. Note that the leading ingredient is water. Better (less expensive) to add your own.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sam Humphries on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 08:53 am:

Just got off phone with Prestone technical support (1 800 890-2075, option 4) with question about "Prestone Extended Life" antifreeze I just purchased for my 1916 T.

They advise that all Prestone antifreeze in yellow bottle is "OAT". Looks like I have spare stuff for my Crown Vic and F150.

Sam


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sam Humphries on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 09:15 am:

Just located Zerez original, ZX001, at Graingers. Granger part no. 1UCC1, pricy at 18.26 a gallon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 09:45 am:

OK, so I'm lost. The label on the yellow jug above says ethylene glycol, not propolene glycol. It doesn't say extended life. Yes there are two chemicals at the bottom of the list with an 'oat' in their name, but that is not the 'OAT' acronym mentioned in the article. But then Prestone says it is? This thing is sounding more and more like the ZDDP hysteria.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 09:48 am:

Oops, sorry I guess it does say extended life. I was looking for larger letters.:-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 09:53 am:

Still sounds like hysteria though. Seems there always has to be some doomsday prediction out there that's going to inversely impact your hobby, no matter what it is. This one is probably just the latest one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 10:24 am:

It sounds legit to me, Hal. Just like it has been shown that ethylene in gasoline can destroy some types of gasket materials, there could be something to OAT coolants having chemicals that adversely affect our cast iron engines and gasket sealants. Regardless. I'm not much of a gambler and wouldn't want to take a chance on damaging my irreplaceable Model T engine if all I needed to do was to drain the OAT coolant and replace with IAT to eliminate that possible danger. Even it there was nothing to it, I wouldn't want to take the chance. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 10:51 am:

Perhaps it is. I don't know. I am the skeptical sort, though. I did some 'googling' and found all kinds of contradictory information. Green is OK. Green is not necessarily OK. OAT- Organic Additive Technology. OAT-Organic Acid Technology. Sierra is OK to use. Sierra is Propolene Glycol. Propolene Glycol is not OK to use. OAT attacks silicone. OAT attacks babbitt. OAT attacks brass. OAT attacks cast iron. I'm sure there are still plenty of new cars on the road with cast iron blocks. Not too many brass radiators on new cars anymore, but plenty of brass temperature sensors and probably other fittings. I think silicone is still a pretty common sealer even in new cars. Modern bearings are still babbitt, although no bearing is suppose to run in coolant. I find it hard to believe Prestone would open themselves up to the inevitable class action lawsuit if it can be proven that OAT destroys engines on all cars over 10 years old, when they claim their product is safe for ALL makes and models. Too much conflicting info out there for me to worry too much about it. Wonder what Richard Henza thinks?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 11:31 am:

Hal, why do you run anti-freeze in your car at all? Evil anti-freeze has never kissed the neck of my radiator.

I run Prestone or some brand anti-rust and waterpump lube. The coolant stays milky white; no rust. It has to lower the freezing temp just a little.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 12:34 pm:

I've done it both ways. In the Summer, I don't worry too much about it. As it gets low I usually just top off with water. It does get cold enough to freeze here though. While all our old cars live indoors, my shop is not heated unless I'm out there. Insulated, but not heated. I don't want to risk busting something on the few nights we get really cold (Teens), so Winter time, I make sure there's some antifreeze in there. Not 50/50 per se, but some.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cecil Paoletti -- Rrnton WA on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 04:56 pm:

Perhaps we all ought to revert to the use of alcohol as an antifreeze coolant additive. It would be period correct but of course it would boil away at a high rate in an un pressurized cooling system like the Model T uses. I am still confused about materials used in the Model T engine versus those used in relatively modern cars. Most all engines still use cast iron, steel, copper, babbitt and gaskets in both modern and old. This debate does sound a bit like hysteria.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 05:06 pm:

One thing I read said the new stuff was geared toward aluminum blocks, heads and radiators, but like you said, there's still a lot of the other materials in modern vehicles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Nicholson on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 11:05 pm:

Yep, Just another thread of panic and another reason to be scared of driving your T. Sitting back and watching this forum, I can clearly see where a newbie would say the heck with it and buy something else. If it isn't what kind of ignition system you have, whether you run or water pump or not, what type of band material you use, what weight and brand of oil you use, which spark plugs, etc, etc etc, and now we all should be shaking in our boots about our antifreeze?? I work with modern coolants every day as a tech and can't really see much difference in a model T motor and a modern motor material wise. Now when GM first came out with Dexcool (orange) it was horrible. We would take water pumps of 3800 gm motors that would have the fins completely corroded off in 60,000 miles. I wouldn't put that crap in anything! Now the universal (yellow/gold) is a lot more friendly. It actually first appeared in Fords when they stopped using the green antifreeze.

As an example this week I had a newer v6 apart that had the universal coolant in it for 102,000 miles and inside was as clean as could be. It had a cast block, aluminum heads, plastic intake, silicon based gaskets and three brass temp sensors. All were fine. I put this coolant in all the flushes we do and have had zero problems caused by the coolant. I have also had it in my T for about 5 years without any problems.

Now, if someone had some problems, I am sympathetic for their problems, but I doubt that all the facts were known or revealed. Usually there are multiple things that lead to problems and it is a lot easier to blame a product then to admit there may have been some human error.

Long story short, run whatever you want, it's your choice, just stop worrying about all this crap and drive your T!!

PS: the v6 was torn down due to a broken valve spring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 03:16 pm:

There would be nothing to worry or be scared about or skeptical of if every T owner put in the recommended light weight oil in the engine, 140 or 600 in the diff.(as recommended), 90 in the Ruckstell (again, as recommended) and enough green old fashioned cheap anti-freeze in the water for the cooling system to keep it from freezing in your area along with any amount of soluble oil.
I don't see why so many want to wonder so far from what is the commonly used and recommended.

I would not use that new 50-50 anti-freeze in our modern cars since we now have running water at our house and it costs a hell of a lot less than $4 a gallon like when you buy it in the anti-freeze.
Here in the San Francisco area I always put in 25% anti-freeze and the rest water in old pre-smog stuff.
Doesn't hurt to add a little soluble oil too.
Why fight it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By M Philpott on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 09:04 pm:

It was back in the earlier 80's that the 3 plants that make the main chemical for antifreeze was bought by some company in Japan. The color was and is the only difference between the various brands along with the strength. The main difference is color. I have no idea if they are still owned by a the company in Japan as to date.


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