Engine work w/ engine in car

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Engine work w/ engine in car
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:47 am:

Now that Liz is painted I want to do a little investigation of a minor engine knock I have.

I would like to start with removing just the pan and the head and measuring what clearances I can.

But with the pan and head off what other kinds of work can be done with the engine still in the car?

For example, can the pistons be removed/replaced?

What else can be done ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Katy, Texas on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:52 am:

Cam and valve train removed and replaced, if the front timing cover is removed. I would think, anything except the crankshaft because of it being bolted to flywheel and transmission.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 12:26 pm:

Bud

Terry is correct. However, you will curse Henry's name when you try to check #4 rod clearance. Assuming you still have the 3 dip pan, you will have a difficult, but not impossible time removing #4 rod cap. Once you've done it 1/2 dozen times, it won't be too bad, but the first time is a doozy. Not only will the cap come off at an awkward angle, but you'll want to get the shims off without losing them or losing track of how many were on each side. A proper job will mean only one shim pack will be on each side, but invariably, I've found that folks put in a stack of loose shims on each side, leading to a bunch of stuff coming out all at once, again at an angle that's difficult to reach or see. I always buy new shims, measure what came out and make sure that a SINGLE shim pack goes in...not a bunch of crinkled brass "leaves" which will fall out on the next poor soul that goes in there...

I can't stress enough that you stuff rags into the transmission gap when/if you do this. You do NOT want anything falling in there.

STRONG SUGGESTION: tie safety wire to each cotter key head prior to bending legs and trying to remove them to keep them from flying. If you're the first to go in there since rebuild, you'll probably find both legs tightly bent and you may have the devil of a time straightening enough to remove...which is why you tie safety wire to them to make sure they come out and don't just fall out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 12:45 pm:

Also a strong recomendation is to count the rags you take back out when done to make sure one doesn't end up wrapped around the transmision somewhere.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 12:52 pm:

First thing I would do is make or get a stethoscope to isolate the source of the knock. It could well be cam gear slop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 07:20 pm:

Thanks guys ... I appreciate the tips!

schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 07:22 pm:

Oops - forgot to ask specifically about the pistons. I would like to install aluminum pistons. Can the pistons be removed out the top or would bore taper probably prevent this ?

schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 07:29 pm:

Short of having to actually remove the crankshaft, just about all other engine work can be done in the car.
About 7 years ago I took up the three crankshaft bearings with the engine in the car - however, one has to be sure the bearings in the block have all the same wear. I took the risk and got away with it.
Having a 4 dip pan makes things fairly bearable.
It just takes some careful thinking.
There is no need at all to take the engine out for things like valve, piston or conrod work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James J. Lyons III - West Virginia on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 08:43 pm:

I just finished an "old fashion rebuild" on my 15 touring. I honed the cylinders, installed .010 over rings (ground to fit standard pistons) reamed the block to install .015 oversize valves, installed adjustable lifters, cut new seats and lapped valves and adjusted connecting rods It was easy and simple to do; even with the 3 dip pan. All you need for the rear connecting rod is a good swivel socket and to rotate the connecting rod to the 9 o'clock position. Just don't drop the nuts in the flywheel pan.

If you decide to do this, make sure to clean everything thoroughly! For instance, when I reamed the guides, I made little cardboard trough's that extended out and away from the block. When I was done, I flushed the guides thoroughly and ran a shotgun patche up and down to clean them. I also wrapped the crank journals while I was honing to keep them clean and free from nicks. When I was done, I removed the 2-piece pan retainer which sits up in the block and I reached up in there and scrapped out all the sludge with my hands. I then flushed it real well with kerosene. You wouldn't belive the metal and brass shavings that came out after 97 years of use! Amazingly enough, the engine oil stays very clean! Good luck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 08:50 pm:

Bud, the pistons can only be removed out the top, if still running cast pistons, it will be unlikely that the bores will measure up to take aluminum pistons with out boring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 08:55 pm:

Schuh,

Yes, you can pull the pistons out the top. If there is a large ridge formed at the top or cylinder that normally indicates a lot of wear while having very little ridge usually means less were or that someone previously used a ridge reamer on the cylinder. From memory (not as good as it once was) I think you would remove any large ridge before you removed the pistons. Someone who has done an overhaul in the last 5 years will probably remember -- I haven't done one in a long time. Note many of the parts stores will loan you the tools if your can purchase some of the parts from them. It is highly unlikely that they will have the rings etc. for a T. But you could ask them if purchasing the oil, gasket related "right stuff" there is a forum thread on that etc. would allow you to put a deposit down on the ridge reamer or not. If so -- the cost would only be your labor.

None of us have time to read all the postings. So if you have already done compression checks etc. -- and determined you need to take the engine apart -- great -- go for it. But if the engine is running ok and has good compression -- I would not recommend swapping out the pistons or pulling the head. If you have a simple knock -- use a stethoscope etc. to help you figure that out. A minor knock can be caused by many different things. If it is a rod (normal wear and tear will cause that) it can be easily taken up. If it is because the pistons have too much clearance -- you cannot normally just swap out the piston. Rather you will need to have the cylinders bored to the correct size for the oversize pistons. For that now days -- you will normally need to pull the engine and take it to a machine shop etc.. In the long gone past -- they made a cylinder boring machine to fit on top of the engine while it was still installed in the car. I don't know how accurate that bored the cylinders -- but I think shops now days would pull the engine. Someone with more machine shop experience can let us know how the cylinder boring is done now days.

Note if the bores are good enough and not tapered so you can put in aluminum pistons -- without needing to rebore the engine then the current pistons and rings might also be good enough not to need to be replaced. And at this point do you know if it has aluminum or cast iron pistons?

Remember the Montana 500 folks run cast iron pistons. While I would recommend replacing the cast iron pistons with aluminum piston anytime the engine is overhauled, I would not recommend replacing a good fitting and sealing set of cast iron pistons -- they will server you well at normal T speeds.

There are a couple of good books on engine rebuilding see: http://www.modeltford.com/item/RM3.aspx and also http://www.modeltford.com/item/T-RFP.aspx

Also if you have rebuilt gas powered engines before, the T is fairly simple and forgiving. But if you have never worked on an engine beyond changing the oil -- I would recommend find a mentor and work with them a little. A long time ago, I had never rebuilt a Model A Ford transmission. But I was able to have someone who had Model A Restoration shop/parts business rebuild my 1931 transmission. And he only charged me the normal price for the rebuild even though it took him a lot more time because he had to explain to that youngster what he was doing. I probably could have used the Model A books and completed the job – but it is always much easier if you have someone who can coach you and show you a few of the “gotchas” to avoid etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:36 pm:

Bud
I subscribe to the "other school"!! I remove the engine for any significant work including bearing adjustments. With your car you can remove the firewall (6 bolts I believe) and coil box in one piece after you have removed the steering column (9 bolts). The radiator is held on with two bolts (okay 3 if you count the brace rod). Now only 10 more holding the engine in and you are ready to lift away.
If you have a engine hoist then about 1 to 1-1/2 hours.
Now no risk of scratching your fenders or brass radiator and you can access everything easily.
Others will disagree!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:01 pm:

Do you have the T1 Service Manual? If you don't I highly recommend getting it and start reading.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 07:36 am:

Bottom Line up Front: Thanks to a note from Harold – he reminded me that an original cast iron piston in a T block does not leave a ridge at the top of the cylinder. After market pistons with the ring lower on the pistons can leave a ridge – so if there is one – remember to remove it.

More good reading on the cylinder ridge as well as should you consider rebuilding the engine are discussed at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/160953.html

Respectfully corrected,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.
Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration