Canadian serial #s mystery

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Canadian serial #s mystery
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 04:26 pm:

As a neophyte to the T and to the forum I try my best to do my own research before turning here but I have a bit of a mystery. I was told the engine trans and frame all came from a fairly complete rolling '27 touring that was then dismantled and the body sold.However further inspection has revealed some anomalies.The engine serial # is stamped C(i assume canadian)189681 on the block beside it cast in is T & 312 &either I or L9 the exhaust manifold has ford canada cast in it. The frame is stamped what may be an O,6,or a 0 but I assume is C 662496. So here are the issues it came with 2 demountable wood spokes and no starter. My research of the archives shows that the engine seems to be an '18-'19 and the frame a '26 made just before may 31st. The engine is stuck but when opened up the cylinder walls were nice and clean. Sadly I discovered the water jackets had cracked and corroded right through around the 2 middle exhaust ports! My front axle has severe wear marks from the spring ends but the linkage and spindles look o.k. they seem to have a tapered bearing. the rear spindles look ok and seem to have had a tapered bearing set as well. The trans. pedals have received very little wear at all and it looks pretty dry & clean inside.So now the questions. I thought '27's had wires and starters? How to date axles? and what do I do with this hodgepodge of parts? The body is a'15-'21 american roadster the records say the canadian cars were blue('15) and blue-green what color was the U.S.car? should I leave this('18)eng./trans intact for someone else who needs one? or strip it and look for a block? Are all the engine parts the same? should I look for a canadian or U.S. block? should I match it to the frame or the body? I'd rather have a starter if this trans. is as good as it looks can I adapt one on? Any thoughts, info or opinions are appreciated - Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 05:26 pm:

ouch! buried....is it because I used the C word?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 05:37 pm:

Sounds like your car is a bit of a mongrel of parts from different years. C189681 is January 1919. C662496 is July 1926.

My thoughts would be to pick the year as you indicate 1927 and then go from there. At this late date Australia had cars being assembled at our Geelong factory in Victoria. Your questions are more for the factory at Walkerville. I will let someone more knowable in that area answer the colour etc.

Here is an advert from 11th August, 1927 just after production was stopped in Australia.

And a photo of a Geelong assembled 1926 'T' from my files...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 08:50 pm:

Rik, are you a close relative of Joe Van?

Some photos would help.

Non-demountable wheels were still sold with a few 1926 non-electric Ts in the US.

If the frame has a number, it is most likely a 1926 or 1927 frame.

The 1926 transmissions have two ears at the top front that bolt to the engine block.

There are casting dates on Canadian transmission covers, engine heads and blocks. They will help let you know how much of each year parts that you have in the engine.

1922 Head Head Casting Date.

head

1925 Block Casting Date.

Block

1925 Transmission Casting Date.

Tx

1926 Serial Number and Casting Date.

Serial


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:43 pm:

Rik,

Is that an acceptable way to address you or should it be Rik-Van?

At this point it sounds like you have already purchased the parts. If that is the case finding out what you have will help you decide where you should go next. Recommend have someone near you that is familiar with Ts or if that is not possible post some good photos and have folks help you determine the year range of the parts you have. For example the transmission with the wide brake drum came on the 1926-1927 improved cars. It can be adapted to work in an earlier car – but takes more effort etc. Is the rear axle a 1926-27 large drum or a 1925 or earlier small drum. And if a small drum a 1919-1925 or the earlier style. Etc.

In addition to what year range are the parts the condition of the parts will also influence your decision. If all the 1924-1925 parts are in good restorable shape and all the 1926-27 parts are junk – then moving towards a 1924-1925 might be an easier way to go.

Additionally what do you want from your T? A project to tinker with for the next 5 years and have driving for the son’s graduation in 2017? A car to drive in 3 months? Do you want a reliable safe driver and you don’t care which parts came from what year? Or do you want a show car that has all the parts from the same correct year range for the car that is built and all USA or all Canadian parts? And you can still drive the show car. What type of time and work space do you have? I’ve worked outside in the snow when I lived up north and it is cold and slows down the progress. What sort of budget do you have etc.

In general it usually cost less in the long run to purchase a reasonably priced driver than the build up the same car from parts. That is why some folks purchase the 1926-27 driver and sell off the parts – the separate parts will often bring more money than the complete car. From the little I have read so far it sounds like your T is like many others. Before the body was taken for another project the engine was likely replaced sometime in the past. There is a good chance some of the other parts have been replaced. Depending on how badly the water jacket area is and how bad or good the engine block is, it may be more practical to obtain a better block. For sure I would not recommend rebuilding that block based on what you have shared. There are lots of better blocks available. Note you can have a driver with a leaking block – I did for 4 years with my Model A Ford when I was a teenager. I had lots of fun with that car but I was glad when I finally swapped out the leaking engine for a better one.

Not a “right or wrong” answer – but a “what would work well for you and your desires and current situation. Note the owner that is selling his 1913 project because his son would like a car they can drive now. Not a right or wrong – but a what is good for them at this time.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:06 pm:

Hi David,
That is a neat brochure. As you've confirmed,I have the 26 frame but I thought it was made before May 31st,1926 as that # is 663697 thats only 1201 difference so maybe only a few days before. The body I have is the early style '15-'22 low cowl high back roadster.

Hi James,

Well, my son's name is Joe, but he is 11, so I am thinking not the same Joe? :-)the two rims I have are demountable so that narrows down the date of the axles I think
-thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 11:24 pm:

Thanks Hap,
I appreciate your perspective. I definitely can't afford to put down a chunk of change for a complete car. The body is actually being resuscitated as a labor of love the main reason being sentimental value. The finished result will most likely be a jalopy. I don't mind having a pre starter eng but need a new block as you stated. The rear drums seem awfully small and I have one wheel that has a much larger drum bolted to it that is larger than the backing plates on the axle. one of the wheels is still there which are demountable. How can I date the rear axle? and front axle? Could they have had small drum in canada may of '26? or demountable rims in '18-'19? -thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 11:27 pm:

I'll get a few pics up tomorrow - Rik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 01:13 pm:

Anyone with info on how to date the axles?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 04:30 pm:

Here in Australia we date the 8" diffs with the ribbed backing plates as 1922 to early 1926, to put it simply basically the 23" rim cars. The 11" diff and 21" rims came with the "All Steel Improved Car" which did not arrive here until April 1926. Technically to be correct if it is an all steel car it should have the 11" diff with the smooth torque tube.

The front axle with the lowered stub axles arrived in mid 1925 and first seen on our 1925 "Dalegty's" released by Ford Australia in July. It also came with the lowered curve front spring. Having said that I have seen a few real early "Dalgety's" some still with the earlier type front end. Definitely changed over over by September.

How do I know this? When I was 16 I wanted better brakes and grafted an 11" diff and all the parts into my September 1925 "Dalgety" Van with the standard 23" rims. I made it all fit as it never existed here. I must say I had real good brakes!

I stress this is for Australia :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 01:10 am:

well there doesn't seem to be any date on the hogshead and the head is smooth except for the # 79 cast in. same as the other ones 312 l9 on the block


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 07:19 am:

Rik, there doesn't appear to be any photos available either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 08:19 am:

David, the mods you made to fit 11" brakes to the 25 Rosella van were ahead of their time! The 26 T belonging to the Ford dealers in Kerang, Victoria, has 23" clincher wheels with 11" brake drums. They sold this car new and traded it back. I found a similar 26 roadster in the early 60's with the same combination. While yours would be considered an up-grade to a 25 model, these would be retrograde on a 26 T.

For your interest.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 09:10 am:

I have never seen 21" wheels with 8" brake drums. Both cars you mention had time in the field and I would bet were never sold that way, but probably repaired in use. Thousand more 8" diffs than the 11" ones.

Further examples we once found a late 1911 block in a 1927 'TT', that wasn't original either. We have all found later motors in earlier cars, earlier motors in later cars, later front end assemblies in earlier cars, we even found a veteran front end in a '26 we wrecked years ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 09:46 am:

Allan and David, you both are wrong here, the car described in the start of this thread is very common at the moment in central New south Wales, I saw two examples at a swap meet last year, These cars are produced by a company in Forbes up till a month ago. Each model was called by the year on the block EG, 1917, which had been made in the factory from units from 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 26, 27, and the fitment of 23" or 21" was `also offered to any year. There could be up to 10 or more of these not rare models coming up for sale next weekend by auction as well as tons of good used parts to carry on making them, of course David cars got changed with parts from other years as they went along, god man, that was 80 years ago and we had wrecking yards then as we do now.. Ray


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Green on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 09:56 am:

People who sell model "T" and call the car original should read this and maybe we would have more honest sellers. Here is some thing people who sell cars as ORIGINAL should read as it could happen to you.
Is it an Original vehicle, Appeal over Vintage Car Case Upheld.
The English court has made this ruling and in some ways this could happen here if you wanted to push the point and a good lawyer as how many ads do you see telling you that it is an original car?.......
An appeal court recently heard a case on whether a vintage car should be deemed authentic after a good number of its original components were replaced. An earlier decision to award a buyer following significant work was done on a 1930 Speed Six Bentley was considered unreliable by the appeal court. The vintage car was a Bentley valued at £425,000 and was purchased in 2007 by Mercedes Brewer, a US businesswoman, from a notable dealer with the belief that it still had its original components. However following her discovery, she was awarded £90,000 for damages from Stanley Mann, which maintained that she already knew of the repairs made on the vintage car before it was purchased. The lawyers who represented Mr. Mann indicated that the sale of the vintage car as a 1930 Bentley Speed Six does not signify that all components were original as the description is not relevant to restoration work on the vintage car. The earlier decision was disapproved by Lord Justice Rix together with Lords Justice Lewison and Sullivan. According to the judges, the Bentley Speed Six will remain as a Bentley Speed Six even though it has falling apart prior to being restored. The decision was accepted by Mr. Mann indicating that the earlier decision on the vintage car will have a significant effect of the antiques Market. Mr. Mann said that eighty-year-old vintage cars would require some components to be replaced at some point in time. The recent decision was favorable to the vintage car industry and if the earlier decision was sustain, the antiques market would be very much affected. The legal tussle started when the Bentley was purchased by Mrs. Brewer almost five years before. The Bentley Speed Six was unveiled in the 1920s and is considered as the best vintage car that was produced by Bentley. The vintage car offered 180HP due to its six-and-one-half liter engine and was the most successful race car of Bentley as it won the Le Mans twice. According to Mrs. Brewer, the only original component of the vehicle was its chassis since the engine was reported rebuilt. The earlier decision was reached by Judge Anthony Thornton since the work on the vintage car was extensive enough not to call it a 1930 Bentley Speed Six Car The decision on the vintage car was disapproved by the appeal judges since the evidence presented was misunderstood and the appeal judges regretted the results although the decision was made since there a loss of objectivity in the judge that made the earlier decision.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 01:14 pm:

wow......ok??? All I wanted to know all along was how to visually or through serial #'s identify the front and rear axles etc. Is this what is referred to as hijacking a post? this car is a pile of rusty junk that would ordinarily end up in the metal recyclers not some million dollar high end resto. I'll be buried in it so i'm not out to dupe some poor innocent (one born every minute)buyer. C'mon stop taking yourself so seriously there were something like 15,000,000 T's made the reason they were popular is because they were a mass-produced, run of the mill, middle of the road, generic, simplistic, 1/2 tractor 1/2 car there is absloutely no comparison with any of the high end stuff other than it has wheels! Gosh this is strange there are people chatting on here about their health issues and politics???....whats next a thread about how to knit seat covers? pics of guys having tea parties with their cats in their model Ts?


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