OT My shop lights are flickering!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: OT My shop lights are flickering!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 08:42 pm:

My shop lights are flickering, when my 5HP compressor starts. The lights are cheapo florescent lamps, but it drives me nuts. How are you to work on your model T when the lights flicker. Any thoughts? Hot days has me in my shop later in the evening.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:06 pm:

When I was haveing that problem in the old small shed,the wireing was not large enough to carry the load for 1 thing.ANother,there could be a problem with the motor on the compressor.That was what a electricain told me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:15 pm:

You need separate circuits for the compressor and the lights. The voltage drop when the compressor cycles on causes the lights to dim or flicker. The wires are too fine gauge for both to run together. Run a separate circuit from the panel to the compressor and it should fix the problem. Those who are electricians can tell him what gauge wire and size breaker he needs.

Or if you are in an old neighborhood, the main circuits on the streets might be too overloaded. In that case you would need to contact your electric company.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:15 pm:

what amperage is the feed to the garage?
and how far away from the source (house panel ?)
is it?
what all is on the panel in the shop?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:22 pm:

The feed is 200 amps. The compressor is on its own 30 amp circuit, with #8 wire. The lamps are on a separate 20 amp circuit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:33 pm:

is this a recent problem?
has it existed since it was installed?
if you plug a light into an outlet , does it flicker to?
anything else effected?

the wire size and breaker amperage seems to be sufficient


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike D, Williamsburg VA on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:39 pm:

John,
Use a Volt meter to check the voltage on the lighting circuit..take the reading with air compressor off.
Turn on the air compressor and re-check voltage on the lighting circuit again. I'm sure you will see that when the air compressor comes on that the voltage on the lighting circuit drops lower than your original reading.
Beside Shawn's questions, I have a few too.
Do the fixtures have T8 or T12 lamps??
Are any other items in your garage affected by the air compressor?

If your lamps are T12 with magnetic ballast, I would up-grade the ballast to the newer electronic ballast that will work with the T8 lamps


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bede Cordes, New Zealand on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:44 pm:

John, i have little knowledge of your us installations, but here most fluro fittings now have electronic ballasts, and if this is your case, they may have trouble riding through the voltage dip caused by the compressor startup. Also check your compressor unloader valve is working correctly, so the motor is not starting on load and drawing excess current causing the voltage drop. just a couple of things to consider. Cheers, bede


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan Two Rivers Wisc. on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:52 pm:

If its a 5 hp motor its probably 110/220 capable. Run a 3rd #8 wire and split between 2 breakers for 220 and it wont do that. 5hp at 30amps is just about the threshold for 110VAC. ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:55 pm:

John
your ballast's may be weak, your motor may have a bad winding. as mentioned above, check voltage drop, and use a clamp style ammeter on the motor circuit , amperage will peek at start up but should settle down to name plate rating within seconds

T8 electronic ballasts will help. no matter what the problem is, they draw less amperage and take less amperage to "start"
lowering the load on your system will help.
and depending on your set up and budget , they have T8's in L E D now , NO ballast , great light levels and about a ten ur life expectancy
and the draw less than 20% of the energy your current ones do


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 09:59 pm:

good point Bill
is this wired 120 or 220 v ?
I just always assume 220 for a compressor

746 watts per HP divide by your voltage , for your working load


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan Two Rivers Wisc. on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:19 pm:

Thanks for that equation Shawn! I had it; its just that it was in the fourth file cabinet 6 brains ago... You dont use it you lose it. A lot of consumer stuff comes wired for 110V but for Joe Consumer just to plug it and play makes it a selling point. I cant do the math right now, but my 220V 185 amp MIG welder doesnt affect anything. How many HP is that welder in Kw? I am guessing about 8??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Stitt-Southern Oregon on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:25 pm:

Just another thought, how cold is the shop? I use to have this problem and solved it with real live old American made ballast.
I also use expensive tubes. I can't imagine the load on a group of florescent to be an issue.
BTW I switched to eight footers. Four footers are more trouble than they are worth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:35 pm:

for the welders you have to read amperage , as they are a variable , depending in heat and wire speed settings
the output amperage is rated at 12v 185 amp
the input is about 220 v 11 amp.
wattage is then constant

(approximate)

Maximum rated load , makes us think it is more powerfull....marketing!!! lol


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:43 pm:

Your best bet is to switch to kerosene lamps for lighting.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:51 pm:

Motor is brand new, 230 VAC Single Phase. Voltage seems fine... 230- 235 Vac on compressor, 115 - 120 on lighting circuit.

Mike, the shop is 75 to 85 degrees F. The lamps are 4' all other shop lights( 4' and 8') are fine. The flickering lamps are brand new also 4' Cheepies from Home Dumpo.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan Two Rivers Wisc. on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:54 pm:

How about this? Its a white gas cylinder, pressureized and used with the "Hollow Wire Company" Illuminattion devices in residences. Also know as coleman lamps with compressed white gas and a mantle. Its for sale too! Circa 1910 and still has gas in it! ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan Two Rivers Wisc. on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:57 pm:

China lamps picking up EMP from motor starter! Al Gore endorsed perhaps?? ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:57 pm:

John
are all the lights that flicker on the same breaker as the ones that don't?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 10:58 pm:

Bede, The flickering is constant while the motor is running. The flickering stops when the motor stops.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 11:04 pm:

The lights are on their own 120VAC 20 amp circuit separate from the compressor. Shawn, Yes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 11:07 pm:

I May have to go to incandescent lamps in my work area.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike D, Williamsburg VA on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 11:14 pm:

John if you have "Cheap Shop Lights", those with old style magnetic ballast and T12 lamps, I would consider up-grading to fixtures that has electronic ballast and T8 lamp. (Besides in the near future T12 lamp will no long be manufactured, so you will be forced to up-grade to T8 lamps anyway).
If you really wanted to be ECO friendly, up grade to the new 4ft LED lamps. No ballast is required and their operating voltage is normally 90v-277v.
The driver is built into the lamp and most lamps are rated at 50,000 hours. That's 11 years, if you operate lamps for 8 hours a day!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 11:48 pm:

Does anything weird happen to the lights in your house when the compressor is running?
You can have a 400 amp entrance but it won't perform if it's not adequately grounded.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Thursday, May 10, 2012 - 11:56 pm:

John, have you varied all the electrical connections in the main electrical panel are tight? If your main has aluminum feed, those terminals commonly need to be re-tighten every few months. I had this issue every spring and fall.

Do you have a laser thermometer? If so, open your panel and check the temperature of each breaker, and the terminal (hot, neutral, & ground). An elevated temperature reading will indicate an increased resistance and potential issues.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J Berch on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 12:07 am:

I don't want to appear to be biased but I'd take Mike Daigneault's opinion seriously because the man does this for a living.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garrett - Boonville, Missouri on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 12:15 am:

Perhaps loose neutral wire?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 10:10 am:

John
Check the easy to get to connections in the breaker boxes they can (and will) loosen over time.
Double check the neutral connections including the the grounding. My sister had an issue last year with a loose screw (not the one in her head)causing voltage fluctuations.
My shop lites flicker all the time...they are the cheap home depot junkers, but a poor electrical connection won't help.

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 10:22 am:

If you coat the lamps with Modified Bitumen Roofing Tar, they won't flicker so as you would notice.

The problem is your brain is operating faster than 60 Hz, so it isn't able to filter the flicker.

Have you tried swapping some of the flickering lamps with those in non-flickering fixtures?

I think you're another victim of cheap ChiCom crap. Where was the motor made? It's always cheaper for the seller. The buyer pays extra for the downline effects of cheap crap.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 10:29 am:

I asked above,
is anything else effected?
a loose wire on the mains will effect everything,
if you plug a trouble light into a recepticle , does it flicker too?
A loose connection will cause heat,
an overload on the "bus" if the breakers are across from each other is possible causeing heat and a "loose" connection.
(try lights on a different breaker)
especialy if these are clip on breakers,
what is the make of panel,?
the best way to diagnose this is with all the facts
since you are not an electrician, I do not want to advise you to try anything that may get you shocked
thanks and post ALL the information


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 10:47 am:

Ralph, I think you may be on to something. I'll coat the lamps with tar and toss them for good uns.

Bill, The lamps that flicker ARE cheepies from Home Dumpo.

Garrett, I tightened all the neutrals and replaced the ground clamp at the ground rod. That was my first thought too.

Mike D. I will check the Lamp type today. All the old lamps in the shop are stable, both 8' and 4' only the two "newer' lamps are the problem, so well see!

Thanks all!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 11:25 am:

The suspect lamps turn out to be T8 tubes with magnetic ballasts(The Chicom variety). None of my old T12 lamps have the problem. Today I will replace one of the ballasts with an electronic type and report back.

Thank you John Regan for the YouTube link!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bede Cordes, New Zealand on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 05:38 am:

John,

I think you have diagnosed your own problem, cheap lamps/fittings affected by voltage distortion.

Slightly being OT, I found this thread interesting... with you guys and your 100/230V, Australia, and us are 230/400V, and typically a compressor here with a 5hp motor would be 3ph 400V. Usually once above 2hp, if a 3ph 400V supply is available, 3ph would be used.
Also LED lighting seems quite common in the US ? Still too expensive here, for a shop situation anyway.

Good luck with your troubleshooting John.

Regards,
Bede


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