Metal Impregnated Trans Bands

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Metal Impregnated Trans Bands
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 12:17 am:

While searching through my stuff today for a set of bands to use in the 15 I'm building, I ran across a set with removable ears and linings that appear to be cotton with metal (probably brass) woven throughout. They even had some wires sticking out along the edges like an old wire cable. Although the surface seemed packed smooth on 2 of the 3, the material was still thicker than the 2 sets of "never installed" cotton linings I have. I've never seen any linings with metal. I'm tempted to try using them as is, since they have removable ears and could be changed later if necessary. Any suggestions, comments, or warnings?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 12:40 am:

I would not use them. Having loose metal particles in the engine and transmission is never a good thing. They may damage your drums, will cause magneto problems and most likely their use will result in damaged bearings, bushing, gears etc. Are you sure that the linings are not brake linings that some one rivited to your transmission bands?

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 01:18 am:

Mike,

There was a period for awhile...back in the uber-asbestos chaos early days when the alternatives being available had frictional properties, but not heat 'wicking' properties so someone came up with the bright idea to bury brass fiber and brass chunks in woven linings for any band brake application, even those current and still in use. Brass was chosen as it wicks heat real good and will wear away rather than scratch away...

Nice idea, lasted about 2 years...then new materials were found for 'web' type applications and they didn't need the brass infill.

So like Steve H. says, probably a nice conversation piece as those brass fibers may turn to dust in use as planned, but in a T that dust also has to go somewhere where in an open enviroment it just gets blown away like floor dust.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J Berch on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 01:47 am:

What time frame would that "Uber-asbestos chaos early days" have been George? I lost a very good friend of mine to Asbestosis. He had been an Asbestos insulation installer for a number of years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 03:11 am:

The brass wire stuff is brake band lining and it's an excellent product but I'd stick with proven materials for T linings....... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 04:31 am:

When the original Scandanavian lining were replaced by an inferior product (mid 1970's) there was not much to choose from until the Kevlar material surfaced.

Brass impregnated lining was one alternative which a lot of us used. Such material was widely used in transmissions such as farm machinery and was specially made to be used in oil.

I had it in my car on the foot brake for years, it wore really well and I still have the band stored away to use if needed as it hardly showed any signs of wear. I only removed it when I put in Kevlar bands and decided to instal the 3 at the same time.

The only problem with the band was its tendency to chatter when the car was nearly on the verge of stopping.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 06:28 am:

Put Kevlar bands in and only do the job once. You also won't have to worry about the what if's...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 06:29 am:

There were all sorts of gimmick products advertised and sold for Model T's when they were new, and today. Many of these gimmicks were simply a waste of money while others were also dangerous.

These bands fall in the dangerous category. They might look good hanging on a nail in your garage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 06:47 am:

The original uber-panic happened in late 72 maybe during 73 and swoosh...overnite most places that had or 'might' have had asbestos in their product stopped shipping...

I was designing disc brake pads and lined block shoe type industrial brake systems at the time, and yup...got caught short and had to come up with 'something' and it WAS brass chips mixed with fiberglas strand chop and super high temp resin as a complete insert 'block' as opposed to lined with block backing support and for the caliper system totally molded hockey-pucks.

Used it for but a year or so and they did work great, then other good stuff came along that had frictional properties equal to old...but 'dusted' like there was no tomorrow and lasted but 1/4 the prior 'maybe' or 'definately' asbestos 'stuff' :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 08:20 pm:

This forum is a good place to sound out those "good ideas" and give others the chance to comment . I often think of things from a different perspective after seeing it in print. I've got 2 new old sets of Scandanavias in the shop, but, I just ordered a set of wooden band linings. Thanks to all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 10:51 pm:

Lately there's been a lot of talk about "chattering near the end when stopping".......are you sure that's not coming from the triple gears?
Bands don't make a metallic sound.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 11:54 pm:

Craig, applying the trans brake does not put any stress on the gears, unless you apply the brakes while also holding down on low or reverse which you would not do anyway.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 01:32 am:

They don't need to be stressed to make a little racket.
Both of my T's do the same thing when nearly at a full stop....... <shrug>


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Victoria Australia on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 03:53 am:

With a fair few down here now with the hard linings, l've tried and l'm sold, the grab is no where near as bad as l'd imagined, only a little more than a Kevlar band, the fluff effect cant happen, most certainly an addittion that should be considered.........l have a little over 80 miles so far and apply the brakes in the same manner l would as if l was using kevlar or cotton, to protect the drums from overheating, if this is possible with hard linings..

David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 07:41 am:

It takes friction to stop/slow down the drums. Heat is the result of friction. Any band material that generates friction will have the capability of damaging drums. It just takes poor driving habits to complete the equation. Cotton, Scandanavia and wood will show abuses and fail. Kevlar will take more abuse than the others and run to total destruction (I like the thought of that, if I ever need it). I had a Kevlar band that I ran on the brake position for 12K miles and flipped it over and reused the other side. Try that with any of the others.

Of all the transmissions I've built, the highest percent of cracked drums were reverse drums in the web area with little or no wear on the surface and no bluing indicating to me that the casting are just weak. I've never had a brake drum that couldn't have been re-used except for 26-27 drums breaking in the bolt hole area for the rear flange and the earlier brake drums for being worn heavily in the clutch disc contact area. I have a good supply of cores from a 50 yr old stash of parts that have never seen anything but cotton and those have the same percent of issues as the others I get in.

As for the ratcheting sound when coming to a stop, that is mostly from the friction grabbing the band and turning it into a self energizing band.

If anyone has pictures of failed drums due to Kevlar, please post them here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 08:35 am:

Drums don't fail due to Kevlar. They fail due to cracks! I've replaced several brake drums due to cracks, most recently this '27 drum. Someone had machined the diameter down which weakened the drum so it cracked shortly there after. This was with old style Scandinavia cotton bands, not Kevlar.

It is a lot of work to pull the engine and tear it apart just to replace a cracked drum. By the time you rivet the drum to the hub, face off the rivets on the lathe, clean everything in the parts washer and then start assembling the transmission again you will wonder why in the heck you didn't just buy a new drum.




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