Transmission Bands Recommended?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Transmission Bands Recommended?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By SSGrant on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 05:28 pm:

After being out of the Model T loop for a few years (10) I am easing my way back in.

In both of my T's I have been running the old scandinavian bands. At one time when the kevlar first came out I bought a set and quickly discarded them after the backing on the kevlar would melt and create little plastic pellets.

After 10 year what if any improvements on bands are out there and recommended?

Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 05:32 pm:

I highly recommend Guinn's wood bands. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 05:37 pm:

Scott-
The modern Kevlar is woven just like the old Scandinavia lining. I have run Kevlar trouble free for thousands of miles on all my cars.

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 05:42 pm:

Here is the thread detailing my experience in installing the Guinn wood linings on the bands using tubular rivets, instead of the split rivets that came with them, obtaining great results. The bands work superbly. Jim Patrick

www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/152825.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 06:46 pm:

I will never use anything other than wood.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Baker on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 06:52 pm:

I'm a BIG fan of wood as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 07:14 pm:

Wood is OK... Kevlar is better. But don't ever run a water pump! (inside joke).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 07:14 pm:

Kevlar is good if you like it.
Wood is good if you like it.
NOS Cotton or Scandinavia bands are good.
Modern Repro Scandinavia are not so hot (my opinion).
Has anyone tried leather belting?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 07:27 pm:

Only on the receiving end as a school kid!!1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 07:44 pm:

Here's another vote for wood. What I like about wood is that they don't produce lint that can clog the oil tube. This is important for hardheads like me who don't want to run an external oil line.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Friday, May 11, 2012 - 08:13 pm:

Always used cotton linings and I drive hard, fast, often, and in hilly areas. Typically get 6yrs out of the brake lining. Quite happy with the new Cantex Scandinavian linings, but they could make them just a little bit longer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Schultz_Sheboygan,WI on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 08:53 am:

I have wood and Kevlar in my tranny, wood is on the low drum. Haven't cracked a drum going on 5 years now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By SSGrant on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 09:51 am:

To those who use the wood bands.

Does the hogshead need to be removed to install the bands even with the removal ear on the band?

Not that it really matter, what kind of wood is being used and does the wood and bands need to be pre-soaked in oil before installing in the tranny?

Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 10:07 am:

That will be subject to debate & personal opinion. I have installed more than a few sets of woods and I do not believe you can wrestle them through the adjustment hole without pulling the rivets through or cracking the wood. They are flexible but again, and a matter of preference, but you know they will still be round & intact if you install them with the cover off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 10:46 am:

There's at least half of our chapter's membership that has wood transmission bands........ that ought to say something positive indeed !

This morning before looking at the Forum , adjusted the brake & low bands for the second time since the engine rebuild 9 years ago. Estimate about 6 thousand miles ..... not too shabby !

Also found a "tar leaker" ignition coil messing up the new Fun Projects coil box kit. A little lacquer thinner & a new coil did the fix. I suspect a shorted secondary winding, will test later.


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 10:57 am:

Scott, I have heard of those who have installed them through the access door, but, personally, I wouldn't try it because it is important to the function of the wood bands for them to be perfectly round and, to get them through the door and around the drum necessitates distorting them which could also crack or splinter them, then once you get them through the opening and around the drum, without breaking them, they might not resume their perfectly round shape. I installed mine during and engine overhaul with the hogshead off and the engine out of the car, which is probably the best time to install them. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 11:20 am:

Keith (who I respect as much as anyone in the T hobby) said "I have run Kevlar trouble free for thousands of miles on all my cars."

John said "Wood is OK... Kevlar is better."

Whenever you ask about band material you are enquiring into a T hobbiyist's religion. There are desciples of the Kevlar and the Wood religion out there. There are even small cult followings of Scandanavia, Cotton, Composition and other religions.

Lots of folks adhering to the Kevlar religion report thousands of trouble free miles, (like Keith who really drives his cars hard and often) very seldomly having to change them.

I'm glad to see that my fellow congregants have responded to this thread in greater numbers, I guess our proselytizing program is paying dividends. We have now replaced all our pews with poplar wooden benches and are looking towards installing sawdust dispensers for the faithful.

Personally I visited each denomination for a spell before my final conversion.

With Cotton and Scandanavia bands installation was a snap, the access door was my route of choice, but the linings never lasted long.

With Kevlar I found you had to follow closely the "make your band round" ritual and then remove the hogshead cover to keep them round whilst installing. If you did that and you said the proper prayers you got a long lasting band with good service and a pedal which feels nice like a Cotton Band. Multitudes of the Kevlar True Believers are quite happy with their choice.

My experience with Kevlar was that after the fourth broken drum I drifted to the the church of Wood and Splinters. Perhaps I was unable to remove all my sins or I failed to tithe often enough, I'm not sure what my failing was, but obviously I just wasn't pure enough for Kevlar.

As a result I now run only Guinn's bands in my Ts. Guinn's are "boxwood" which is also called "poplar". What is nice about wooden bands is that you can make a steam box and bend your own using whatever wood you want.

Pine (Douglas Fir)is so soft that the pedal feels like cotton bands for a few hundred miles before the band is worn away... no sudden surprise of lost band function, you will get to adjust your pine band at least weekly.

Mahogany (I used Honduran Mahogany) lasted longer (about equal to Scandanavia bands) but just not long enough.

Oak is so hard that 3/4 of them will crack in bending or installation.

The Guinn bands are best, they are not nearly as pricey as Kevlar, especially when you figure in the cost of transmission or engine replacement. I have installed through the access door, but that is dicey as it is easy to break rivit holes or crack the bands that way. True happiness comes with hogshead removal! I find the most happiness with the use of soft aluminum pop rivits.

The wood bands give me long life... longer than Kevlar because every time I broke a drum it also destroyed the Kevlar band... easy adjustment, no chattering. I can't tell if they leave "lint", I know the cotton bands do and have heard that Kevlar can (even when the drum doesn't crack), but my Kevlars never linted.

Whenever I look for cars as possible purchase candidates if the owner says he has Kevlar bands I don't bother even looking at the car... unless I am looking for a car with the plan of immediate engine removal. Upon my conversion to the divinity of Wood, I passed my unused Kevlar on to another T'er and gave dire warnings of the doom which their use foretells. He claims to be still using the same bands now these many years hence.

So I strongly recommend conversion to the One True Religion... Wood. If you stray to the dark side, we will gladly welcome you back once you have seen the light, we'll even help you find replacement drums, and maybe help you balance your drums and bore your bushings.

Tongue in cheek but firmly in the Church of Wood, Terry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 01:08 pm:

I have been using Kevlar for over 13 yrs. and like them. keeping band slippage to a minimum, besides having polished drums are key to having success with Kevlar. The hogs head should be removed when installing Kevlar or wood bands in order not to distort the metal bands. Having the metal bands round and fitting the drum before attaching Kevlar or wood is a must!
Have also Guinn's bands in a friends 14T and they work great.....also bought a set of wood bands for a backup engine.
I did notice that when using wood bands the engine oil seems to stay much cleaner compared to Kevlar.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Schultz_Sheboygan,WI on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 04:15 pm:

I have a set of Kevlar in my coupe that came from the Terry Horlick congregation back in 2000, still going strong.They were my first band installation on a hot Saturday afternoon in July, and my wife assisted with the project.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 06:57 pm:

Les has made an astute observation about the cleanliness of the oil. Most all T's that I have repaired or serviced running Kevlar linings have blackened oil color as if it was a diesel engine - and I've serviced quite a number of them. I have also repaired (low drum replacement) in half a dozen transmissions in the last several years and they all had Kevlar linings. I'm not saying it is the direct cause but I am saying they were a contributing factor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 07:02 pm:

Les has made an astute observation about the cleanliness of the oil. Most all T's that I have repaired or serviced running Kevlar linings have blackened oil color as if it was a diesel engine - and I've serviced quite a number of them. I have also repaired (low drum replacement) half a dozen transmissions in the last several years and they all were using Kevlar linings. I'm not saying it is the direct cause but I am saying they were a contributing factor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 07:35 pm:

What do you suppose the black oil could be from? Could it be burnt oil residue from the excessive heat caused between the Kevlar linings and the drums? I've heard that the tough as steel (there is no disputing that) Kevlar linings have difficulty retaining oil which could cause excessive heating of the drums.

It is common knowledge that bushings should be softer than the shaft that is revolving inside it. That way the bushing wears out before the shaft does. One thing that worried me about the Kevlar is its famous durability and hard as steel toughness. Is it so tough and durable that it is actually harder than the drum? If so, it would be like having a case hardened bushing on a hot rolled shaft. The mechanic could accurately claim that his bushings were more durable than all other bushings, but is that really what you want in a bushing or a band lining? I would rather the bushing wear out before the shaft and a band that is not so hard that it outlasts the drum.

This speculation on this Forum is what caused me to decide on Guinn wood bands back in 2010. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 09:15 pm:

Most all T's that I have repaired or serviced have blackened oil color if the owner doesn't change his or her oil often enough. It doesn't matter what kind of linings he or she has.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 09:39 pm:

I ordered wood yesterday. With the hogshead off for installation, is there any benefit to using bands with removable ears? When the wood finally gives up, is it gradual or does it break apart?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 09:46 pm:

I don't think they break apart. I think they just gradually wear down over a period of several years. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 09:53 pm:

PS. Since wood bands are best installed by sliding over the drums with the hogshead off, the only benefit to having removable ears would be, when the bands finally wear out, you wouldn't have to remove the hogshead to change the bands, especially if you decided you wanted to use another type band such as Kevlar or Scandanavian, which can be installed through the transmission access opening. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 10:30 pm:

Royce,
Both engines were fresh rebuilds which I had assembled. Each were hot tanked before assembly. Both had new bearings/mains done at the same shop. Rebuild included new Eggy alum. pistons, Stipe 280 cam and new chev. exhaust valves. Both engines started out using Mobile 1 10-30 synthetic oil.
The oil darkened very quickly in the engine with Kevlar band linings. The oil in the engine with wood band linings was still very clean after 100 miles.
I think there is more to it than "It doesn't matter what kind of linings he or she has".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Saturday, May 12, 2012 - 10:58 pm:

Mike, the bands will wear out however they want to. I have used up a complete brake, low and reverse band going down Iowa Hill in about 15 minutes (don't go there, but if you do, go down in Ruxtell + low gear... don't listen to anyone on your tail trying to speed you up with their horn!!!) finishing the hill HANGING on a strap in front of a Jeep. However, now, in my car I usually end up noticing that the pedals get closer and closer to the floor until I have to adjust them (I just got in from adjusting my bands not 10 minutes ago!). You can easily see how thick the wood is and how much thread you have on the reverse and brake pedals, so you will know when you've done your last adjustment and can start planning on new linings.

The linings can get almost paper thin... you should replace them then, if you wait until you get wood chipping out then you will be running your rivets against the drum... not the best idea going!

Re: removable ears/ quick change bands. I always use quick change ears... just in case I fell like going on a long trip or tour. I can carry an extra band and install it through the access door sliding the others around to whichever place I want them to be... I haven't had to do this because I try and not go on long trips with worn out bands. The wood linings wear so slowly that I have never been surprised and had to change them on a trip. ... Iowa hill is only about 20 miles from home and I was able to limp that far.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 01:43 am:

I have found that the wood bands go for long periods of time without needing adjustment. Last year we went on a tour of well over 100 miles with a lot of start/stop driving. I adjusted the brake band when we got back home but reverse and low were just fine.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 11:36 am:

Does no good to offer an opinion or 'matter of fact" if Royce weighs in, Les !

Just so you are informed Royce - I am in the T restoration business and have been for years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 02:32 pm:

Hey Steve, I should just call and ask this question. I have woods in my car and want to change them in the car.. Can this be done without cracking them ?? How about steaming them just before install. Lots of you use them and love them. WHat are your thoughts ?

By the way I am changing them because they were on a different trans before and have grooves in them from before they now chatter on the new drum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 03:15 pm:

I just installed a set of Guinn wood bands. Removed the hogshead, removed the old and installed the new wood bands with no issues.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 03:42 pm:

Primary reason for wood lining to chatter is if they have been become glazed over, usually from slipping.

I have not installed "woods" through the inspection/adjustment door - near impossible to keep them round even following the contour of the hogshead from the driver's side. One still needs to spread the band out to begin installation into the access door opening. Any doubters give it a try with just a bare band and see the results - it won't go through and still be round.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 04:27 pm:

I would not try feeding them in through the hogs head. They are flexible but not that flexible and will crack. It is best to remove the hogs head. The good news is removing the hogshead gives you an opportunity to fix a couple oil leaks.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 04:30 pm:

Wonder if any one has tried the hinged bands that you see come up every so often? I would like to try those with the wood linings. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 05:44 pm:

Maybe it makes a difference whether you have a late tranny and hog with the wider brake band. I've done it through the door, working from the rear and sliding them forward. The old bands come out broken, but the new ones are pliable, yet stiff enough to bounce back into shape once installed. They are stiffer than the band steel itself. In fact, I don't even use springs.

Been using wood liners since 1997 over 50-100K miles.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 05:52 pm:

Ralph,

How many miles would you say you get out of a set of wood bands?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 06:13 pm:

I'm poor at recordkeeping, Hal, so don't know. Even the IRS says so. Usually, I've only put in new bands when I've had the engine/tran apart for other fixes.

My younger son doesn't drive the T often, but when he does, I have to take up the low. He doesn't drive it often enough to not slip low.

Sorry for the non-answer.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, May 13, 2012 - 06:33 pm:

It's OK. I don't keep track either. I do know that I go months and even years without adjusting my wooden bands and we drive almost every weekend, usually in excess of 100 miles.

I attribute my band life to quick and firm engagement in Low and Reverse and milking every ounce of braking from the engine before using the brake. I've seen Kevlar billed as "The last set of bands you'll ever need." I won't say that about wood, but I don't see me changing them often enough to feel like I need something that lasts for life.


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