All three should be ribbed, right?
sTEVE jEFF:
NO, NO AND NO: THE EARLY 15s had lettered pedals, the middle 15s had ribbed pedals and the late 15s were smooth
My 1915 Touring (#767495, built somewhere around late April-early May) has smooth pedals.
Steve,
Ford also supplied them mixed -- i.e. as he transitioned from the lettered pedals to the ribbed the car could be equipped from the factory with both styles. And when they transitioned in the USA from ribbed to plain they could have both styles in the same car.
Note for a Canadian Model T once the ribbed pedals became standard they continued into the 1920s (ok how long after 1915 is from memory -- but it was much longer than the short USA time frame) -- unlike the USA production that switched to the plain pedals the later part of the 1915 production.
Respectfully submitted,
Hap l9l5 cut off
My 15 has ribbed pedals. I don't have the engine number where I can easily get to it.
Under the FWIW category, this question is one of the most interesting...
The 'book' has a set of dates, but remember these are Highland Park design/release/factory record dates. As Hap points out the Canadians did their own thing for many years longer.
I have made it a point to visually examine and check out every 1915 I have even come across since July of 1976. That certainly does not make me an expert by any means, but when it comes to oddities in conventional wisdom...well, have comments.
Through the years I have seen what I would call a disproportionate number of ribbed pedal/cast iron hogs heads on American cars that were but 2nd owner/3rd owner (yeah I'm old enough...lol)with a pretty good hand me down record of 'work', last go through just after WW2 and in the era before anyone knew of what was right and what was wrong because no one had found yet the factory records, etc.
The dates on this so called 'illegal' combination have always been prior to November 1915, yet I also still look at '16's just as curiously as I have always given kudo's to guys who leave 16's, as real 16's and don't predate them...and have never found the 'illegal' combination on any after November 1915 that appear 'old'!
Could these late '15 have been changed? Sure...but why is what I always asked myself? Why go through all of the work to put a set of ribbed pedals into a cast iron hogshead when it would have been just as easy to swap hogshead complete because surely, no one gave a danged about letters/ribbed/smooth at any point during that first 50 years or so.
I try to find a reason to help justify these transition abnormalties we find from time to time in the T life. Try to do so without simple rationalizations in spite of what the bible may say as to 'official' dates. The forging die for pedals is NOT that complicated and all of the nice curves and slopes also lends to very long die life. I'm willing to bet that once the drawing change was made any NEW dies were bought with the smooth design and the old dies continued until their useful life was reached.
I have a personal problem with 'transition' cars and do not mind admitting it. With all due respect to those who help...too often 'conventional wisdom' is seen by 'experts' as a certainly can't be before, and possibly no earlier than 'x' days after release. Folks need to look beyond modern modern thinking and modern ways...forging dies were expensive, they did not have the convenience to rework easily in the era...so unless a design was actually anything more than cosmetic, industrial anthropology would say use the dies until they die, but all new would be ordered to the new spec.
Call me crazy......but I lived through the high radiator sedan era where all were told that square splash shields and stamped detail under fenders were 'commercial' and 'wrong' if on a sedan. Owners out of intimidation then changed as they could, and then finally the late great Bruce published and said that this exact combination was probaly exactly the original sedan specification! No harm, no foul, but original jewels were needlessly converted and the real square and 'bead under' parts set out in folks back 40's and allowed to rot.
The reason I asked about this was that my June 1915 runabout has a smooth low pedal and ribbed reverse and brake. Yesterday I saw a set of pedals for sale, with smooth low pedal and ribbed reverse and brake. The idea that dies were used until they wore out makes sense. That, plus the practice of using up parts on hand, would explain a lot. Too bad nobody who can tell us for sure is still around.
June 1915 it would be typical to see mixed pedals on a new Model T. The change happened at the foundry level in March 1915. Here's the notice to dealers from the encyclopedia:
MAR 22 Acc. 1701. Model T Releases, Ford Archives
"Have removed the grooves from the surface of the foot (pedal) pads, making them smooth, with a fify-five degree bevel 1/16" deep around the edge. Also changed the thickness of pads at edges from 5/32 to 1/8", leaving then 5/32" thick at each side of arm where it joins pad. This change to take place when dies are resunk, all forgings which we have on hand at that time to be used up." (Joseph Galamb)
If it were my car Steve I would make all the pedals match one way or the other, either of which would be correct, or any combination of lettered / ribbed / plain because the stray 1914 style pedal was still liable to be found lurking in the factory and could have been used too!
On our Canadian sourced cars, pedals were ribbed right up to the 26-27 cars. Smooth pedals are a rarity over here.
Just my observations.
Allan from down under.
My 15 touring came from a rather poor farm family and I know much of the history since it was purchased. It is a very early 15 and I think was actually made in the latter part of 1914. I am certain that the only modifications made to the car were made on the farm and were simple ones.
I mention the above for the record as it does have the lettered pedals as Dave mentioned in his post.
Cheers
schuh
FWIW, the '15 Touring I had for 10 years has all 3 ribbed pedals. The build date on the engine is March of '15 (725,xxx).
Apparently the RHD cars used ribbed pedals for many years after '15. The starter-type hogshead I'm using on the RHD Hucks Starter truck I'm building has them, as do other RHD ones I've seen. Allan Bennet's observation above seems to support that.
RHD, 1916, I must have one of the rare ones, my driver, no ribs but 2 other hog heads on early 16 engines I have, with ribs, cast and alloy hogs.
I could kick myself. There was a ribbed low pedal at the auction. I wasn't paying attention and John got it. I'm too cheap to pay what he'll want for it.
Steve,
They weld easily and the vendors offer the correct head. My 15 had 2 ribbed and a smooth brake. I had an extra ribbed reverse. I cut with a bandsaw and welded the head on to have a matching set.
Steve nice to see you 2 weekends in a row.
Nice being seen. Likewise, John. I expect we'll be at another one sometime.
I too have seen a mixture, ribbed and lettered.