Model T electronic ignition coils and questions

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Model T electronic ignition coils and questions
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 04:50 pm:

Hold on to your seats. This could get a bit technical. Now this subject warrants a long explanation, so please bear with me.

First off, I am 23 years old and a student here at Texas A&M. As such, I have no money. Also, I am a T fanatic. A few months ago, I was delighted to finally be able to purchase one, a 1924 Touring Car (my favorite body style). At four grand, I couldn't pass it up. It was tired for sure and not running, but otherwise in decent shape. It was equipped with a Bosch 009 distributor, which I found disappointing since I love the original ignition. Oh well. After doing all the major checks necessary, I was able to start it and drive it the day I bought it (I got about a mile down the road before the low band disintegrated).

Anyway, it turns out that the distributor did not work well. No matter what adjustments I made, it still didn't work well. The spark advance never acted right, and the starter didn't work so it made crank starting the car dangerous. I've driven several Ts with distributors and for the most part, they are quite drivable, but they just don't feel the same as a T running on the mag. Again, being a college student with no money and thus not being able to afford an alternative ignition system, I hoped to revive the original ignition if it could be done relatively cheaply. Naturally, the first thing I did was check the magneto. It showed less than an ohm to ground. However, with the engine running, there wasn't so much as a volt at any speed.

Long story short, it turns out that a magnet had broken and destroyed several coils on the magneto ring, and the transmission did a fine job of shredding the copper wire. I cleaned it all out and removed all of the magnets, of which four were cracked, but had not yet let go, and removed the magneto ring. I installed oil slingers in their place. It was just too expensive and time-consuming for me to redo the magneto. After college, I'm going to completely restore my car and getting the magneto working again will be a top priority.

So with the car all back together, ignition was still an issue. My T came with a new 6-volt battery, and I have no intention of ever swapping over to 12 volts. However, my coilbox had been rebuilt, and I had already built up a small stockpile of old coils. I could always rebuild a few of them as I have done before, but as I understand, the performance of stock coils at 6 volts is generally dismal at best.

The solution? Electronic Model T coils! Fortunately, I understand the Model T ignition system well (or at least I think I do). I also know that the stock ignition coils perform poorly due to the ramp-to-fire time of the coils on battery. Therefore, my first coil design used a flyback transformer that produced 10,000 sparks per second. According to my oscilloscope, they produced the first spark within a degree of crankshaft revolution after the timer makes contact. I also kept the original primary and points in the coil so is still buzzed just like the original. With these coils, new wires, and a new Anderson timer running on 6 volts, the T ran great! It idled smoothly, accelerated uniformly, and best of all, there was no high-speed miss. I also enjoyed free-starts and a responsive spark advance lever.
Model T electronic coil MK I

But my coils had a few drawbacks. They really drew too much current, and they were sensitive to changes in voltage in the electrical system. The car could be hard to start if the battery wasn't fully charged. This was a serious concern if I ever got the starter working again. However, if all was well, they worked beautifully. Finally, after several months and a few hundred miles, the coils were retired.

Now for my new design, and this is the one I have questions on. First of all, it uses an original primary and secondary coil, and the circuit operates the primary. The points still buzz (sort of) and it produces a typical T coil spark at a typical frequency of around 250 sparks per second. My question is about the ramp-to-fire time for stock coils. I've read Ron the Coilman's articles, and they were quite informative, so I'm hoping that he'll chime in here.

My new coils at 6 volts put out the first spark in 2.3ms after the timer has made contact, again according to my oscilloscope. All four coils are with 0.1ms of each other. I hear that this is on par with stock coils running at 12 volts. If I run my coils at 12 volts, they will easily throw a 3/8" spark (at 6 volts it's slightly shorter) almost exactly 1ms after the timer makes contact. Of course, I don't intend to run my coils at 12 volts, but the possibility is there.
Model T electronic coil MK II
Now assuming the timer has been advanced enough, what is the reason for stock coils to run poorly at 6 volts? Is it because the time-to-fire is not consistent for all of them, i.e., some are more retarded than others? Is it less of a problem for 12 volts? Also, how is the time-to-fire affected by magneto operation? I know that as the engine's RPM increases, the voltage output increases, and thus time-to-fire is reduced, but it's not eliminated. I mean, how close do the coils actually fire in relation to those 22.5 degree peaks? The position of the spark advance lever must have some strange effect on the timing.

Now for one last question. For those of you who run stock ignition coils, how do they behave on 12 volts? I've never driven a T with them, so I just don't know. Most importantly, how does it compare with magneto operation?

Anyway, thanks for all of your input. I haven't had the opportunity to try my coils yet, but I'll post an update when I do. Drive safely!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 06:19 pm:

"Is it because the time-to-fire is not consistent for all of them, i.e., some are more retarded than others? "

Short answer: Yes. I can give you the long answer, if you'd like.

"Is it less of a problem for 12 volts? "

Short answer: Yes.

"Also, how is the time-to-fire affected by magneto operation?"

The higher the voltage, the faster the ramp time. It is essentially a linear function.

"I mean, how close do the coils actually fire in relation to those 22.5 degree peaks? The position of the spark advance lever must have some strange effect on the timing. "

I have studied this and written a few poorly understood articles for the Montana 500 newsletter.

"For those of you who run stock ignition coils, how do they behave on 12 volts? I've never driven a T with them, so I just don't know. Most importantly, how does it compare with magneto operation? "

Driving a T on 12 volts with coils is an unpleasant experience, for me. You need to constantly manipulate the spark lever, as the spark is way over-advanced at low speed, if the the timer is left in the same position as when running at high speed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike D, Williamsburg VA on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 06:20 pm:

Sounds like you're trying invented the "True-Fire Ignition"system by Bittner Engineering


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 06:22 pm:

Links to my poorly understood (poorly written?) articles.

http://www.antiqueautoranch.com/montana500/9no1/9NO1.pdf#page=5

http://www.antiqueautoranch.com/montana500/9no2/9NO2.pdf#page=7

http://www.antiqueautoranch.com/montana500/10N02/Volume%2010%20no%202.pdf#page=5


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 06:32 pm:

Cameron

We share some experiences. When I got my T it wasn't running and I thought the least expensive way to get it running was to put in a distributor. But distributors were expensive and others on this forum convinced me that I would be missing part of the T experience if I didn't use the original coils.

So I rebuilt the original coils (new caps, cleaned contacts)and adjusted them according to the T electrical handbook. Car ran like a dream. Now I operate off a 12V lawn tractor battery as the mag is no good (like yours). I didn't use a HCCT because I believe adjusting them the way I did works fine IF you run off battery. i don't think you get best performance on magneto unless you use a HCCT.

Final story is that I am glad I went the way I did and the car runs extremely well.

All that being said I applaud your experiments with the electronic points (which I assume are a square wave generator driving a MOSFET or power transistor). I do however have one question. Why didn't you consider some sort of master electronic vibrator in the positive lead to the coils? Simpler, cheaper, easier to cool.

I believe someone was selling a unit like this several years ago.

Cheers
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 06:37 pm:

Tom,

That is pretty much EXACTLY what I was looking for.

Oh what I wouldn't do for a storage scope!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 06:44 pm:

Bud,

I considered the idea of using a master vibrator, but I figured it would look a lot more original if each vibrator was hidden in each coil.

At least that's what I like to tell people. Now the REAL reason is that I figured the electronics in my coils would be dying frequently, and there is a much smaller chance of me getting stranded if I could just swap out the coils as they died, and even replace them with stock coils if necessary.

And to think that not a single one has ever failed... Who would have thought?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 06:56 pm:

Cameron
If you look through old postings you will find a device called a "e-timer". So far it is working very well. I admire your inventive spirit and wish you all the best success.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 07:06 pm:

G'day Cameron,

Good idea mate!

No problems with failure with the circuit heating up in the contained box?

Peter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 07:13 pm:

If people didn't experiment or try to improve things, we'd still be chasing down our food on foot and living in caves. Good-onya Cameron.

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 08:08 pm:

A very interesting idea.
One thing I have thought about is to modify the primary windings on stock coils so as to increase the rate at which the magnetic field builds up. A logical way to do this would be to remove turns.
However, working with the coil windings is messy!
As it is, I run stock coils on 6V with very good results, so I haven't been motivated sufficiently to actually try it.
Refusing to run coils on 12V or incorporating a 12V battery in my T, I designed this method http://cool386.tripod.com/coils/coils.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 09:18 pm:

John,

You are EXACTLY right. After all, ramp-up time is determined by inductance, right? A typical Model T coil I believe is somewhere around 2mH or so. Just a little while ago I was playing around with some primaries and secondaries, and it occurred to me that the coil's inductance was my enemy. I simply removed half of the turns on the primary, and thus halved the inductance. My coil's time-to-fire was reduced to just 1ms at 6 volts. Granted the current doubled, of course.

Your website is what inspired me to pursue this course. After all, I absolutely did not want anything 12 volts on my T. While I was reading your page, it occurred to me that it is not necessary to let the coils ramp-up fully to get a good spark. After all, isn't ramp-up time logarithmic anyway?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bede Cordes, New Zealand on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 09:38 pm:

Cameron,

what are you using in your circuit to switch the load of the primary winding ? A power transistor of some sort ? Like Peter says, will it generate a small amount of heat ? (My experience working on VFD's here, I'm no expert, just curious).

Good on you for what you're doing and keep it up.

Regards,
Bede


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 09:44 pm:

Thanks for the support!

I'm using an IGBT that was specifically designed for driving ignition coils. Even if I run the coil continuously, the IGBT doesn't even get warm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 11:51 pm:

From my simplistic viewpoint, any CONSTANT delay caused by either a 6V or 12V battery would be unimportant as normally we do't change battery voltage while driving. Thus while the absolute delay might be different, once the control arm is bent to give an idle spark at TDC, any advance would then be constant. Timing should always be set dynamically, never static...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker on Monday, May 14, 2012 - 11:58 pm:

After I posted the above, I realized I was WRONG....
A constant delay will cause a change in timing with engine speed. It will retard the spark with increasing speed, so an adjustment will be necessary as the engine speeds up.
The original magneto solves this by increasing the voltage as the engine speeds up. Huff and his cohorts were quite smart...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 10:50 pm:

Cameron,

I started out much the same way as you designing an improved Model T ignition coil for a friend who was tired of having to continually fiddle his coils to keep his car run well. Here are a few proto-types of my Electronic coil controllers:

E-Coil

Its been a long journey that started over 10 years ago and I sure learned a lot since I started, thanks in part to many knowledge and helpful folks on this forum. I’ll try to address some of your questions regarding coil operation then provide some insight regarding the bigger picture from what I have learned.

Reliable Model T ignition requires a minimum spark energy delivered from the spark plug. You can get an estimate of that from the energy stored in the primary winding of the ignition coil, Epri using the formula: Epir = ½ * L * I ^2 Where L is the primary winding inductance in Henrys and I is the primary winding current in A. The typical Model T ignition coil is 3.3mH (0.0033H) and the peak primary coil current is about 5A when the points are pulled open by the resulting magnetic field so the typical value of Epri is about 41mJ. The next question is: How long does the coil have to charge for the primary current to reach 5A? That can be determined from the equation: Vpri = L * di/dt Where Vpri is the voltage used to charge the coil, L is the primary inductance in H and di/dt is the rate of rise of primary current (di in Amps) with respect to the time it takes to charge (dt in seconds). Rearranging to solve for coil charge time (dt AKA dwell) dt = L * di/Vpri so when operating on 12V the minimum coil charge time is: 0.0033*4/12 = 1.375ms and when operating on 6V, the minimum coil charge time is: 0.0033*4/6 = 2.75ms. This is why the coil dwell time is twice as long operating on 6V compared with operation on 12V. The consequence of the longer dwell time when operating on 6V battery has been well documented as you are aware by Ron Patterson and Steve Coniff in their article available here: http://www.funprojects.com/pdf/Model%20T%20Ignition%20System-Final%20Artiticle.pdf

An electronic Model T coil operating from 6V battery will be subjected to the same dwell restrictions. Operating it from 12V is an option to overcome the dwell restrictions but this will still only eliminate variables associated with the coil points and magneto. Many other variables remain as described in this article: https://modeltetimer.com/uploads/E-TimerArticleV5.pdf including the timer variables which can produce significant performance variation and degradation. Hence, the reason I abandoned the Electronic Model T coil and developed the Electronic Timer or E-Timer instead which eliminates variables associated with all three problematic systems; coil points, magneto and timer contacts while maintaining the sound and appearance of stock operation. You can learn more about the E-Timer by searching for it on the forum.


Technically, the E-Timer performs very well and is greatly appreciated by a number of folks who enjoy driving their cars at peak performance without having to continually maintain coil points, timer or magneto. However, I also learned that many folks do not appreciate the E-Timer for the exact same reason; it is an improvement on stock operation which completely detracts from the entire purpose of restoring antique cars to their original grander including all the mechanical nuances and need for mechanical alignment, mechanical wear, continual maintenance and performance limitations. I also learned from a recent thread that use of distributors, although never stock on a Model T, are tolerated much more readily than the E-Timer because distributors were period correct ignition options, the E-Timer was not. I applaud your efforts and hope you keep honing your inventive talents but do not be surprised if you receive a fair amount of scorn for you creative efforts in addition to praise.

I’d also like to acknowledge the merits of the stock ignition system. The use of ignition coils wired to function as astable multivibrators was very clever. The ability to start and run the car self sufficiently on magneto power was ingenious. Designing the magneto output voltage to increases proportionally with engine speed which functions to automatically reduce the coil dwell time needed achieve the necessary spark energy; in effect providing automatic timing advance to improve performance was amazing. The original Model T ignition system is a true electro-mechanical marvel well worthy of preservation. The hobby is very fortunate to have members who do not seek modern improvements in Model T operation, learn and teach the ways stock operation as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 12:46 am:

Mike,

I knew that I couldn't be the only one trying electronic coils!

Now earlier today, I was trying to figure out what kind of ignition system could effectively ignore the coil's dwell time? I thought about it for a while, and then it occurred to me. CDI can! After all, what is the coil's minimum charge time when subjected to 400 volts? I'd say it's pretty much negligible in this case. And yes, I do know that while the coil is charging, the capacitor is discharging.

Anyway, I built a prototype CDI circuit (literally out of junk) and it works incredibly well! It throws a 1/2" spark within a few microseconds of the timer making contact, and at speed, the circuit only draws 1.5 amps at 6 volts! Yes, the timer has to ground out 400 volts, but stock coils running on battery are actually MUCH harder on the timer contacts than this thing is. The really nice thing is that all it requires is four old coils with good primaries and secondaries with the points wired together.

Now before I forget, I want to say that I'm not trying to make a better T ignition system here. I'm just trying to fix my T's ignition problems with almost NO money. At least I get to show off my ingenuity while I'm at it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 12:00 pm:

Quote: "but as I understand, the performance of stock coils at 6 volts is generally dismal at best"

Methinks that you've been misinformed.

For optimum running you need good coils, properly set up and a good mag.

On mag, if the coils are maladjusted, T's don't run very well, if at all.

T's run quite well on 6 volts, even if the coils are maladjusted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 12:13 pm:

I agree 100% with Ken. I ran my T for years on coils & 6V. It ran perfectly well, no misses and would go faster than I cared to drive, (which is about 40).

Would it have run better on 12V? Probably, but i can't imagine the difference would have been perceivable on anything other than an oscilloscope.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 12:53 pm:

That's pretty much what I've been thinking all along. I've always figured that if the coils are in good shape, have new condensers, new points, and they've been adjusted properly, then there is NO reason why they should do fine.

My Mark II coils are just supposed to simulate properly-adjusted stock coils running at 6 volts


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 02:30 pm:

Cameron,

The design constraints I imposed for my design was to utilize the original car wiring and original coils and operation had to closely mimic original ignition operation on battery. I ruled out CDI because it changes the way the coils operate without the characteristic buzz. Be extremely careful experimenting with CDI, you are dealing with high voltages that can be fatal!

Regarding 6V coil operation; You can indeed achieve good engine performance operating on 6V battery. The problem is; every ignition variable will need to be properly functioning and adjusted. Coil points are but one of these variables. The timer contacts must provide good, consistent ground contact over the entire dwell period free from bounce. Any imperfections will adversely affect performance due to the longer coil dwell time required for full charge. The limited spark advance range still applies as mentioned in my previous post and will still limit performance at higher RPM. Engine performance is not limited by operation on 6V when both of these variables are addressed as demonstrated in E-Timer dynamometer test data operating on 6V with limitless spark advance adjustment available here: https://modeltetimer.com/uploads/Ignition_Dyno_Testing__1_-267231.pdf

Note that 6V stock coil performance drops off rather dramatically above 1400 RPM if timer contact variation is not addressed even with limitless spark advance adjustment range.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 03:19 pm:

Mike,

I've read all the pages associated with the E-Timer and it seems to me that it's a pretty amazing piece of equipment. The only issue I have with it is that the $400 price tag puts it WAY out of my budget.

So far, my first design was by far the best performing of my coils. The timing was precise and consistent. In all honesty, their performance was probably closer to an E-timer than any other T ignition system. If my T was running 12 volts with an alternator, I'd still be using them. Plus, they buzzed just like the originals! An expert couldn't tell them apart from originals.

In regards to CDI, I'm no stranger to high voltages. I'm also a tube amplifier tech and builder. Would you believe that I even considered building a tube-fired CDI unit?

I'm going to miss that buzzing...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 03:36 pm:

I have heard that a T will run better on 12 volt battery than on 6 volt battery. There would be an easy way to prove this. The standard ignition switch has two positions: 1 for battery and 2 for magneto. One could disconnect the magneto wire and connect it to a 12 volt battery. Then drive the T with 6 volt, repeat the course with 12 volt and see what is the difference. If one had a speedometer he could even see if it ran faster on 12 volts than on 6. Also if he has a hill to climb, see which voltage will cause the T to climb the hill with less effort etc. One could also compare gas mileage over the same course at the same speed.

Has anyone made such a test and if so, what are the results.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 03:55 pm:

Here it is! My prototype CDI unit.
Model T CDI unit
The CDI unit is the one on the left. An empty coil was a convenient place to put it. Unfortunately, the spark itself didn't show up so well in the picture.

I'm going to try it out this Saturday, and I'll let you all know how it goes!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 04:45 pm:

If someone tells you he is continually fiddling with his coils you know for sure he doesn't have any idea what he is doing. The Model T ignition system is one of the more reliable parts of the car.

The coils are good for decades / tens of thousands of miles once properly set, provided they are not subjected to immersion in salt water, fire, earthquakes or fiddlers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 05:26 pm:

Royce,

Darn right! I love the original ignition. It's simple (more or less), robust, and reliable. I'm just trying to make these coils electronic because I don't have a working mag (or one at all). When I do my big restoration, that magneto is going to get redone and it's going back in. Then my electronic coils are gone.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 06:55 pm:

Cameron,

I like the way you roll dude.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 08:20 pm:

I would certainly agree with the reliability of the Ford coils - that's one part of my car I never have to worry about.
As I seem to be the only forum user who has run 6V into Ford coils for the last 10 years with good results, here's the requirements for doing so: 1)Anderson timer, 2)Champion X plugs, 3)minimum initial timing, 4)rebuilt coils, 5)coils set to less than 1.3A helps also; 1.2A or even 1.1A, if they reliably fire at low battery voltage when using the starter motor, lights on, etc. Speeds reached can get up to around 75km/h on a flat road.
There was actually a vacuum tube based CDI system described in one of the 1950's electronics magazines; Radio Electronics or one of those. It used a vibrator power supply and a thyratron.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 07:55 am:

Hope your temporary ignition solution meets your needs and that your magneto repair goes exactly as planned.

As others have attested, $400 is a very reasonable cost to attain superior Model T ignition performance with only a few minutes of labor. Unfortunately, this revelation only becomes crystal clear after receiving an education from the school of hard knocks when ALL the costs of repairing the stock ignition system (Mag, 4 coils/points, timer) are added up including parts and labor incurred until acceptable ignition performance is achieved; It's not too unusual that things don't go just right the first (or second) time due to the number of critical parameters and tight tolerances. Fortunately, it will not be long before something needs adjustment again to keep your maintenance skills sharp. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 08:07 am:

Cameron :


Did I miss something in the previous threads ??

Would your coils work on Magneto AC Power ??


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 08:56 am:

Sorry guys. I just don't get the deal with this continuous adjustment and maintenance of the stock system. I run the stock system and this has certainly not been my experience. I would contend that if you are having to continuously adjust and maintain your original system, you have something wrong. Or worse, you are one of the 'fiddlers' that Royce eluded to above.

BTW, I understand that Stan is a fiddler, but it probably doesn't affect his ignition system.:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 09:37 am:

I thought along Cameron's lines in my early T days too but over the years I've found that with decent points and new caps and HCCTing (plus a reasonable or re-built coil box) they don't need to be touched for years. Add to that the fact that, at least around here a T less area, coils turn up at flea markets and such and seem plentyful. I recently found 2 at the Englishtown swap meet. A totally non-T market at $5.00 each with points on them. My "point" is that their out there in numbers and properly set-up their reliable and I lost interest in "improvements". The timer needs WAY more attention than the coils in my experience. Not trying to discourage you just my opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 12:31 pm:

Mike,

The pushback you get on your fine & well engineered E-Timer might not be so great if you didn't throw barbs at those who like to use the original system. ;-)

"It's not too unusual that things don't go just right the first (or second) time..."

How many iterations did you go through before your E-Timer worked the way you wanted it to? :-)

"Fortunately, it will not be long before something needs adjustment again to keep your maintenance skills sharp."

When the E-Timer is still functioning after 100 years your point will be made. :-)

":-)"

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 02:22 pm:

Jerry:

Please give examples of "the barbs at those who like to use the original system " you claim Mike has made.

I searched the old Forum posts...... Where did you find them ?


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 02:36 pm:

I don't find a $400 timer a very good investment at all. Particularly not for the E timer which disables the ability of the engine to operate magneto. You can't be serious!

I like to pay $5 - $10 for a good used original Ford roller timer, and had no trouble finding nice usable ones as cheap as $1 each at the most recent Chickasha.

I would not expect you to have to spend much money if you already own a timer and a set of rebuildable coils.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 02:59 pm:

Jerry, there were many iterations over 3 years of development which is reflected in the seemingly high but fixed cost.

That was my intent; to stress folks like to ignore the time they invest in choosing alternate solutions which all too often doesn't go as planned and end up costing far more in parts and labor.

With reference to my last comment, it was a barb and agree it would have best been omitted. I do respect and appreciate all who choose to use the original system. Thanks for your comments.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 08:23 pm:

Here's a note about the original ignition system.

At a museum that I work for, (The Old Kingsbury Aerodrome, www.pioneerflightmuseum.org), we have a fully restored 1916 T replica WWI ambulance, and it has a good magneto. I rebuilt the coils myself a few months ago. I installed new points, new condensers, the usual. Unfortunately, I don't have an HCCT or have easy access to one, so I adjusted them as best I could. Even so, that ambulance runs great! It can easily be started on the mag, and I have never had to touch the coils. It is one of the most reliable vehicles there.

One interesting note is that several months before I had rebuilt the coils, it was missing one. I picked up a Ford-scripted coil from an antique store for $20, cleaned up the points, adjusted them, and that was the end of that. I put it in the Ambulance and it was ready to go! Sure, it probably needed a new set of points and almost certainly a new condenser, but I just wanted to see how long it would last if I put into service as-is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:13 am:

Jerry & Royce: ( aka: "the E-Timer againsters")

Cameron's electronic coil unit will not work on Magneto power, neither will the distributor system of any vintage, or a T engine with a damaged magneto, or a engine with the E-Timer.

These ignition systems work on battery/generator/alternator DC power.

Royce has been well documented on his grumblings of the E-Timer " disables the ability of the engine to operate magneto"........ but wholeheartedly supports Cameron's electronic coil
project by responding "I like the way you roll dude." My father had a saying for someone who agreed on both sides of a subject "He's talking like a man with two a" " holes".
How can you be the benchmark of originality and then endorse electronics ?

Jerry, you still looking for Mike's negativity with the original ignition system ?? His posted comment after your allegation was probably meant as criticism for your post. As I posted earlier, searching thru the archives, there IS NOT any negativity by Mike on the Ford ignition system. If you consider his comments on regular maintenance on timers, rollers, coil re-building/calibration, wiring & spark plugs negative comments, your expectations of Model T's needs reviewing. These are just facts of Model T driving, just as needing grease at designated points, changing engine oil and adding air to tires.

Royce's comment of "disables the ability of the engine to operate magneto" is blinded information.
The magneto is still operable, just like when operating the standard ignition on battery power, just that the E-Timer uses battery/recharging to operate.

I do enjoy the original Ford ignition system. I've used original period Anderson timers, my own re-built/calibrated coils, Champion X plugs, & Edison #14 plugs. Since November 2010 , our '26 Runabout has been powered with E-Timer ignition and Edison #14 plugs. At any time I wish, the conversion back to the Anderson Timer can be done in minutes....... not going to happen, because it's not my choice.

There are those who run the E-Timer and know first hand benefits, and then those who negatively comment without that experience.

Guess we'll agree.......... to disagree.

Keep in mind that Cameron has done some good preparation in his project & I commend him for his efforts. There is a high voltage danger at this point in his development, sure that he will address that for safety's sake.


Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 10:13 am:

For example, let's say you were driving from Johannesberg South Africa to Sudan. As you are going across the desert, your battery box falls apart, and the battery drops out and is broken. All you have left is the cables with broken off battery terminals.

With an E-Timer, you get nowhere after that. The car won't run at all. You are screwed. You can't drive your car one inch further.

In Constantine's case, he simply continued the trip. Because he had a reliable roller timer, and a magneto.

If a real world example makes you feel angry and sad I can't help you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 10:18 am:

Cameron: it isn't impossible to rebuild a coil and have it pass an HCC test without any further adjusting. It isn't likely and you'll never know it without a tester but it's possible. I've had 2 out of a possible 18 or 20 tested and needed no adjusting so, as I said, it's possible. I understand your predicament about not having one available to you and it may be hard to believe but if you think it's running good now have them set up properly when ever possible and you'l see the difference. Took me a long time too but I learned.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 10:39 am:

Royce:

Same with a distributor or an standard ignition relying on battery power, damaged magneto.

You're reaching for straws

Positive attitude & smiling !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 11:26 am:

Mike and Bob's comments on original system maintenance would tend to make the uninformed believe there's a lot more to it than there really is. That's OK, I guess. It's one of the E-Timer's selling points. I just do not agree. Once you have your system in place and set up properly, the only maintenance required is maybe an annual cleaning and greasing of the timer, and maybe a point adjustment every 2-3 years and maybe a point replacement every 5-6 years. I hardly equate this to the frequency of checking tire pressure. I've said before. Let the E-Timer stand on its own merits. No need to make the original system sound more troublesome than it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 01:26 pm:

Hal, my comments regarding the maintenance of the original ignition system were based on my observations and experiences of others, not an attempt to distort the facts.

My perception may be skewed but there sure seems to be a lot of coil manufacturers, coil refurbishers and timer suppliers of multiple varieties regularly advertised each month for such sparse need as you describe it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 01:44 pm:

Based on your observations and experiences of others, what ignition system maintenance procedures would you expect to have to perform besides maybe an annual cleaning and greasing of the timer, and maybe a point adjustment every 2-3 years and maybe a point replacement every 5-6 years?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 01:56 pm:

Charlie,

I know that the HCCT is pretty much essential for the proper adjustment of coils running on the magneto. I didn't think that it was too critical for Ambulance, so I wasn't too concerned. The Ambulance typically putts around on the grounds of the Aerodrome, and it's rare that we ever put it into high gear. The only road trips it goes on are trips to the local eatery for lunch, and that's only about a mile away. As it is now, its performance exceeds that of the Aerodrome's other Ts, most of which are running distributors, so I feel that there's little reason to send the coils off to get checked on an HCCT.

I just wanted it to go from barely running (two of the coils had open secondaries) to running decently. Come to think of it, we typically don't have the Ambulance leading a T convoy because the other Ts can't keep up with it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 02:42 pm:

Hal:

I've been in the company of many T drivers, and there is a percentage that are ignorant of suggested or proper maintenance aspects of the Model T.

There are still those who "tune" their coils by ear, and those who purchase repro timers of questionable quality, coil rebuilders who use capacitors of lesser quality, suppliers who sell "new" coils that are not within calibration specs, coil point sets of questionable quality.............and on the drivetrain issues, "new" pinion & ring gears with improperly positioned attachment orientation. Hopefully these observations made by me over the years have been corrected by those responsible or those who have corrected the problem.

Where's the selling point you mentioned. I just stated fact on real world facts of lack of how to care for the Model T Ford maintenance.

There are owners/drivers who are not fortunate to have other T guys around for help with problems. Those who are in a chapter have that resource of knowledge available, but are uneasy to ask. Those who do ask get the help. Our chapter is blessed with a wide range of members from all walks of life & life experiences.

Excuse my ramblings OT, I have to get back outside & clean my oily shoes from the 2 hour T ride this lunchtime. The trans inspection plate screws loosened & gotta check the oil level.



Bob Jablonski


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 02:48 pm:

I find that coils, once set properly, are good for decades. For example the coils 1915 touring were set back in 2003 by none other than Ron the coil man. I know the coils in my dad's 1914 touring were set over 25 years ago. They just don't need any "fiddling" if they were in fact adjusted once, properly.

This is one of those deals where a rookie often starts fiddling before he knows what he is doing. Then he feels the only way out is to spend money on an expensive gadget of some sort.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 02:55 pm:

To the "againsters" :


To add to my ramblings on maintenance, gotta check the oil level & radiator coolant level, gotta turn down the grease cups on the rear axel ends, driveshaft, oil the shackles & front axel points, lower steering shaft grease cup, ................ and oh yes, don't have to service the E-TIMER.

If that's the "selling point" , so be it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 03:03 pm:

Just an update.

It turns out that with my CDI ignition box, it can be used with stock coils with NO modifications. I don't even have to short the points together! I realized that with this unit, the coil fires so quickly that the points just don't have enough time to open, so as long as the points are clean and making contact, then they'll work fine. Since the condenser is wired across the points, it won't be harmed at all.

So this unit can be slapped on a stock ignition system with as little modification as possible (it just goes between the ignition switch and coil box). Talk about keeping it as close to stock as possible!

Now here's one of my thoughts about the E-Timer, since it seems to be a hotly-debated topic. For me, a few modifications for a T are acceptable, especially if they are period accessories, and/or cannot be seen, such as the neoprene rear axle seals. Electronics are more or less okay, as long as they don't permanently modify anything or are present for safety issues, such as turn signals. For ignition systems, not so much. Now when a computer or microcontroller is being used on any of the electronics (especially ignition), well that's just going too far. Besides, what's the data retention time of the flash memory on a microcontroller? About 10 years as I recall, so the E-Timer isn't going to last 100 years.

I had one time when I was driving at night and my battery cable broke. Suddenly the generator put 15 volts into the electrical system and burned out all my lights in an instant. I was running my first electronic coils at the time and they could handle the excess voltage, and the noisy DC that the generator puts out didn't bother them. I was still able to drive home. How would the E-Timer handle a situation like that? I'm not criticizing here, I'm just curious.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 03:31 pm:

Boy you guys are sure taking a lot away from Cameron's original post. Except when talking about electronics and T adaptions.

BTW... I had my set of coils adjusted by "none other than Ron the Coilman" I had one of them fail and limped home on 3 cylinders. I wore out two Anderson timers all with out any fiddler playing.

I chose to install an E Timer only after finding out that I could still charge my battery with my magneto, change back to my original ignition at will and enjoy a much improved performance without the infrequent maintenance of the timer.

All this while maintaining to look of an original T system! Amazing!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 03:57 pm:

In any case the E timer solves a problem that doesn't exist.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 05:24 pm:

I've yet to see any evidence to suggest that once one has a good mag with a good set of rebuilt and properly adjusted coils, that there is any frequent maintenance needed. You are free to run any type system you want, including an E-Timer. But PLEASE don't use frequent maintenance of the original system as your justification, because it just isn't so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 06:26 pm:

Right you are. I've installed new Anderson timers on both the Ambulance and my T. I've never once had to touch them.

I suppose the one advantage with the E-Timer is improved spark advance if you are running stock coils on battery without a functional magneto. If you do have a working mag, stick with it! Just be sure to send your coils off to be properly adjusted. Now as JohnH previously stated, the stock coils can work well on battery (even at 6 volts), as long as you advance the timer a little bit from the book recommendation of 15 degrees ADC. My ignition is really just to get my by until I get my magneto working, and my design intends to make frequent adjustment of the spark advance lever unnecessary during driving.

I'm not a fan of the automatic advance available in the E-Timer. I feel that a T isn't a T without a functioning spark advance lever. Of course it can be programed to function as manual spark advance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 06:33 pm:

My experience with the E-Timer showed better performance with it on manual than on automatic advance, but just marginally so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 07:42 pm:

Bob Jablonski
Not to split hairs but various of the original T distributors will work with with the original T magneto and use just one buzz coil. It was a feature Atwater Kent and others promoted.
One thing Royce neglects (but has acknowledged in the past) is that the early T coils are quite problematic in operation which led to the marketing of so called "master vibrators". The e-timer solves this without making more holes in the firewall!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 07:49 pm:

Les,

I think a better solution is to buy one of the wooden coil boxes that fit 1913 - 27 KW type coils on your 1909 - 12 T. That way you have the advantage of being able to operate without a battery of any kind, and if you have a battery, you can have very easy frigid weather starting capability.

In any case an E - Timer won't be the cheaper or better solution.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 10:23 pm:

Les:

Thanks for bringing up the Atwater-Kent system. I believe Delco had a distributor set that would also work with the magneto for power.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 10:33 pm:

Come to think of it, I have access to a complete Atwater-Kent distributor setup for a T. The distributor was having some issues, so I replaced it with the distributor that came off of my T when I went to my electronic coils. Maybe it's something worth fixing and installing on my T?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 01:30 am:

Royce
Just a couple of problems there;
1 I really like keeping my ORIGINAL Heinz coil box with restored original Heinz coils on my '13.
2. The replacement coil box is the WRONG dimensions for my car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 10:50 pm:

Cameron:

Possible to use your Atwater-Kent distributor ? Let us know how successful it turns out !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 11:38 pm:

Les,

All coil boxes from 1909 - 25 have the same drill pattern in the firewall. I don't understand what you mean when you say that a replacement coil box has the wrong dimensions? Any / all of them have the bolt holes and porcelains in exactly the same place. I recently installed a 1917 style coil box in a customer's 1910 touring to make the car usable while his original box was being repaired.

The Heinze coils were never very good. Put the restored ones on the shelf for driving onto a show field some day, or for static display, or concours judging. Then use one of the solutions I have provided for you.

You sound like you want to keep the original coils original and unmolested. The E timer guy wants you to short out the points. I can't see that as being an elegant or cheap solution.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 01:06 am:

Royce
Heinz coils are wider (4 of them take up more space), but smaller in the other direction. So a box to accept the later coils is going to be different shape, it has no choice. The Heinz coils themselves work just fine as coils, the deficiency is in the point design. To use them with a "e-timer" requires no permanent or even obvious modification. A small jumper wire that is easily installed and almost invisible without scrutiny.

As far as reliability. My experience with electronics has been if they last a year they will likely last 20 years or more. As the "e-timer" has no mechanically or electrically wearing components (no contact points with arcing or sparking), I expect it to last the rest of my life with zero maintenance.
So I will drive my car with my original Heinz coils in the car where they belong!

On my '27 I run buzz coils and a old "Best" brush type timer. I hand crank the car just for fun on magneto or start it with the starter again on magneto. I see no reason to use the battery position when it starts so well on mag. You should try it on your U-tube video.

If I put a "master vibrator" on my '13 I would have to short out or screw down the points just like with a "e-timer"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 08:52 pm:

Just another update here.

On Saturday, I first installed the CDI unit. The engine was cold (relatively here in Texas) and it started on the first crank. It ran like a top! However, my brother was driving it, and apparently the battery terminal wasn't making a good connection. The generator overpowered the unit and damaged it. I fixed the battery cable and then tried my other coils, which I brought as a backup. I installed those, and they worked very well. The car ran almost as well as it did with the CDI, and I found that I almost never have to touch the spark advance lever with them. I could repair my CDI unit and try it again, but at this point, I don't think that there is any reason to.

Now for a side note. Later on Saturday, I was working on my friend's T, trying to get it running. The magneto on his is almost dead, so we were running a set of stock coils on 6 volts. The engine started, but it ran very roughly. I tried my electronic coils in that T, and it ran MUCH better, but it still just wasn't right. After listening to the engine for a little while and doing a little bit of diagnosing, I began to suspect the timer, which was a Ford roller timer (no script). I removed it, and lo and behold, it was filthy, but serviceable. Rather than cleaning it, I replaced it with an original New Day timer (not one of the new black plastic ones) that I found in one of the hangars at the Aerodrome. It was a night and day difference! With my coils and the New Day timer, that engine ran smooth as silk. Of course I wanted my coils back, so he commissioned me to convert his coils to electronic. Fortunately, this ignition system just calls for replacing the condenser with one of my electronic modules. The good news is that I now know that even with a weak 6-volt battery, my coils will still work even when cranking the engine over with the starter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 10:13 am:

Cameron,

The data retention of the particular microcontroller used in the E-Timer is greater than 100 years at 25C and greater than 40 years at 85C. The typical operating temperature logged by the E-Timer is 70C but operation at that temperature is typically a small percentage of the total lifespan so think it reasonable to assume minimum data retention of 75 years.

Regarding your question about immunity to faulty charging systems; I designed the E-Timer power supply specifically for the challenges of the automotive environment including reverse polarity protection, up to +40V operation and ability to survive cranking transients up to +60V while operating up to +125C.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 01:33 pm:

Mike,

Thank you for your polite reply.

Bob,

I don't recall directing my comments to you. Mike's response to me was adequate and polite. I don't know why you fealt your response to me was needed.

"His posted comment after your allegation was probably meant as criticism for your post" Mike did a good job conveying his thoughts. If your interpretation is what he really meant to say, I'm sure he could have done that without your help. By the way, I don't recall ever being an E-Timer "againster".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 01:37 pm:

Mike,

Thank you for your polite reply.

Bob,

I don't recall directing my comments to you. Mike's response to me was polite and spoken like a gentleman. I don't know why you fealt your response to me was needed.

"His posted comment after your allegation was probably meant as criticism for your post" Mike did a good job conveying his thoughts. If your interpretation is what he really meant to say, I'm sure he could have done that without your help. By the way, I don't recall ever being an E-Timer "againster".


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 01:38 pm:

Sorry guys, I don't know how the double post happened.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 07:04 am:

Jerry:


Last I looked, this is a public forum, and a free speech country.

When I see mis-information, I will respond. Period.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 12:18 pm:

Whatever.


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