Uh-oh... A Sudden Steering Problem. Newbie Needs Advice.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Uh-oh... A Sudden Steering Problem. Newbie Needs Advice.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 12:09 am:

So okay; I'm on my way back home from the car show on Saturday afternoon and everything is working great. Then, a couple of blocks from my house, I make a left turn, the steering wheel stiffens up and, instead of castering and "unsteering" itself after the turn, I have to physically neutralize the wheel. I didn't feel any grinding, but the wheel did feel very stiff in my hands. I drove the remaining two blocks very slowly, put the car in the garage and started scratching my head over how to go about trouble-shooting this problem.

I'm guessing the first thing I should do is put jack-stands under the front axle to see whether the stiffness disappears when the weight is off the front wheels. I know my spindle bushings are about shot and need replacing, so maybe one of them gave out. If the steering is free with the car jacked up, then I guess I'll just have to bite the bullet, purchase the required bushing tools and take a whack at replacing the bushings and kingpins.

But if the steering wheel is still hard to move when the weight is off the front wheels, then I guess the second thing I should do is disconnect the pitman arm from the drag link so as to determine at which end of the steering column the problem may lay.

Uh, I presume disconnecting (and re-connecting) the pitman arm is an intuitive operation?—Or is there a special technique of which I should be aware? Tell me, Gang: What are your thoughts on how I should go about attacking this problem?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 12:32 am:

Bob

Yep, jack up the front end.

The pitman arm to drag link cap would be first check.

Wedge stop the spindles to take them out of the equation.



Then turn the steering wheel and look for slop or lock up at the pitman arm in the socket of the drag link, some old time fixes are to use a penny and cup it in to reduce slop, but that fix is shade tree and the penny can slip and bind up.

A round pitman ball, and good socket is needed, or at best use the spring loaded replacement cap if you have worn Ford parts.

If you know the kingpin bushing are shot, after you check for loose front wheel bearings, then go ahead and replace the kingpins and bushings, its not difficult to do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 10:30 am:

Thanks for the advice and photos, Dan. There's no slop or play in the steering wheel at all, so I don't know quite what to make of it. Anybody out there care to chime in?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 10:49 am:

Bob

There should be some play, or else all the parts are new in your T, steering gear case, pinion gears and pins in the steering case, bushing in the case and in the lower bracket, when you wiggle the steering wheel and rock it, pull it, there should be a slight bit of play? Funny you have none.

The other thing would be the drag link, since you found no play at the pitman arm end, check the passenger wheel side too, and check play or twist of the spindle arms in the spindles. Some times an arm can be loose and that may bind the wheel turning action.

With the front end jacked up, both front wheels off the ground, push in and pull out on each wheel, without using the steering wheel and 'steer' the car by its wheels, and examine where the left turn binding is coming from, you just have to trace the source.

It is possible on early T's without the 'long' pinion in the gear case, and the later improved gear case with the groove for that pin to ride in and provide a stop of the steering fully locking may also be a source of that 'lock' you felt on a hard turn left.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 11:00 am:

No play or slop in the steering wheel sounds like there is damage to the planetaries, bear in mind, this is coming from another newby, but the wheel should have a little slop to it due to the design.
Best
gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 11:01 am:

It looks like Dan types faster than I do and does a better job of explaining.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 12:33 pm:

I should have mentioned; the gear case was changed over to the 1926 improved type when I bought the car two years ago (the previous owner having done the work). All the gears in the case were new and now have about 1,000 miles on them. Up to this point, the car has handled like a dream—stable and positive at all speeds, without any wandering or twitchiness.

I just went downstairs to the garage to measure any play in the steering wheel and there's just the barest perceptible amount, which is as it has been since the previous owner handed me the keys. I think it's starting to look like the problem is under the car. I'll get her up on jackstands today and let you know what I find. Thanks for all responses.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 12:41 pm:

Just a wild guess and pretty rare if it's the case but, look for a broken kingpin. You shouldn't have to look hard.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 12:47 pm:

I'd check the gears inside the gear box. The suddenness of this and the binding makes me think you have a broken gear tooth. Even new gears are not immune to breakage (especially if they were made in China) even more so than original Ford Model T gears. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 03:25 pm:

Check the drag link between the pitman arm and the right front tie rod ball joint. A left turn could cause that drag link to bend and then scrape on something. Possible scrape on the radius rod or the underside of the crankcase. Another thing that sometimes happens is the pitman goes over center causing the steering to lock up on a left turn.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 04:26 pm:

Check that the replacement gear case has been installed the correct way up. I struck one where at full right lock, one of the gear pins was slightly protruding enough to engage into the slot. Effectively locked up the steering but could be "forced" out again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, May 15, 2012 - 10:27 pm:

First, check everything mentioned above. Give everything a cursory look, check, and shake. I do this at least annually to every T I own and drive.
Second, I suspect Norman T K has hit it. You may not be able to duplicate it while you are inspecting things. But while driving, road stresses, spring sway, and bouncing can allow the pitman arm and drag link to give a little and move more in ways you cannot duplicate while sitting still. If the pitman arm goes even near straight out when turned hard left, it could go near enough to "over center" on a real left turn to make it not naturally return back to center. That results in the symptom you describe.
The newer gear case is supposed to prevent this, but I have had ones that came close enough to flipping over to scare you (ME!). Usually, it is a cumulative wear and looseness fixed by tightening up everything. It can also be caused by a simple position misalignment on the lower steering bracket. This is especially common on non-factory bodies, like speedsters and depot hacks. On a couple cars, all it took to fix it was a minor tweak on the drag link to make it hit the pan before the pitman arm got high enough to cause a problem. DO NOT bend the drag link much. The bend becomes a weak point that could buckle under stress.
That was my first thought when I read your posting. It is one of the silly things a T can do. One of the reasons I usually close, how I do.
"Drive carefully", and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jeff cordes on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 09:34 am:

You mentioned new gears a couple of years ago, well I do know that Texas T parts had a problem with theirs a while back, where everything was fine for a while and then the gears would start to seize on the pins. I know this for fact because I helped Ben Hardeman with his on the amarillo T party. His steering got very hard and we had to pull one gear out for the rest of the tour. Come to find out the manufacturer wasn't leaving enough clearance between the pin and the gear. Ben has since fixed the manufacturing problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Vince M on Wednesday, May 16, 2012 - 04:59 pm:

Maybe this was already suggested, but disconnect the steering pittman arm from the drag link first to isolate the steering assembly from the wheel linkages.

This will save you a lot of tail chasing and guessing.

Vince


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 01:16 am:

I jacked up the front end today and even with the weight of the car off the front wheels, steering—whether by turning the steering wheel or manipulating the front wheels by hand—was extremely stiff and very noisy. The very loud squeaking seemed to be coming from the brass gear case under the steering wheel.

I dismounted the steering wheel and unscrewed the top off of the gear case and had a look inside. There was no grease inside the case, but the gears were fairly well lubricated with what looked like dirty black oil. I left the top of the gear case off and replaced the steering wheel to watch and listen to the mechanism as it operated. As before, it was very stiff and the gear case seemed to be squeaking loudly. I say "seemed" because I realize it's not impossible that the noise could be originating at the bottom of the steering column and the sound traveling up the tube to the gear case. My gut tells me it's in the gear case, though.

I'm guessing the next step is to see whether Jeff Cordes may be right to suspect the gears seizing on the pins. Regardless of whether that turns out to be the situation, I'll pull everything out of the gear case, clean the gears in solvent and inspect for metal filings and the broken teeth Jim Patrick mentioned.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 02:09 am:

Bob, be sure to check the pins that the gears turn on. If the gears are turning that hard, the pins may be turning in their holes. Just a thought. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 06:11 am:

Good point, David. Lots of variables here. Is there a special tool for extracting the planetary gears? If they're impacted like wisdom teeth, is there a particular method of getting them out?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 06:24 am:

Bob

The squeaking you heard is the clue you needed. It's very likely that the steering shaft has started to gaul in the steering case housing just below the gears.

You said the gear case was updated to later style, so you have a new steering shaft which will be at the maximum diameter with little slop.

Remove the steering wheel and gear case top, remove the 3 spider gears and drop the drag link from the pitman arm. The steering shaft should now be able to be turned with your fingers...I can almost guarantee you that you won't be able to...

A couple shots of oil down into the housing and working it back and forth and in and out, should free it up. Withdraw it some and grease the shaft and slide it back in. Grease the spider gears and you'll be in business.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:54 pm:

Here's what I found today:

I disconnected the pitman arm from the drag link and found that the steering wheel had not loosened up. I could turn the wheel, but it was still awfully stiff. I then opened the gear case under the steering wheel and it was easy to pluck out two of the three planetary gears. The last one would not come out. I unscrewed the big, castle-ated nut and tried to get the pitman arm off the steering shaft. It wouldn't budge. I got a short length of 2" dowel and a deadblow hammer and used them to get the steering shaft to slide up inside the steering column. In so doing, the pitman arm slid off the end of the steering shaft and the steering case mechanism protruded far enough out of the gear case for me to get a hold of the stuck planetary gear. I couldn't pry it off.

As I didn't have a small enough wheel puller to yank the seized planetary gear, I extracted the steering shaft (and I can't believe I'm actually doing this kind of stuff) and took it to the local service station. The mechanic there used a welding torch to heat up the stubborn planetary gear and tap it off. That worked surprisingly well. I let the hot metal cool down naturally and took the two pieces back home.

First question on my mind is whether heating the parts could make them brittle and thereby unsafe. The serviceman didn't heat them hot enough to glow, but they did take a while to cool and pin #3 (the one that held the stubborn planetary gear) got blued.

I'm figuring the next thing to do is jack up the front of the car again to confirm that the disconnected front wheels can now pivot freely. I expect they'll be fine.

And finally, I guess I'll take out a drill or round file or something and make the hole in the troublesome planetary gear a little larger so it won't seize on the pin anymore. Maybe I need lapping compound? Any further advice for the newbie, you guys?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 11:08 pm:

Bob

Use a lapping compound, valve grinding paste or Timesaver or whatever you can find at the autoparts store.

For me the work was on the bench and easy to do.



Since the bore of the stubborn gear is tight, lap it to the pinion post it will ride on. In my case the gears moved well on the pinion posts, but one gear, with magic marker scribe, was binding, so lapping it and the other gears by turning the steering shaft did the job to free up the new gears. The 'longer' pinion was removed and a spare short one inserted in the steering shaft end so that the whole assembly could spin to lap in all together.

No issue in hardness should happen with the torch used to remove the gear.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 02:31 am:

Bob, before you try lapping in the offending gear, try swapping it with one of the other gears. Everything is made with a tolerance, you might be able to get everything to turn freely that way. Just a thought. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 02:33 am:

By the way, glad you found the problem and let us know what you found. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 02:49 am:

Absolutely, yes, EVERYTHING connected to the car's steering is a very important safety issue. However, these little gears and pins are a low stress and very low speed device. Remember, the only thing applying pressure from the upper side is your arms. Unless you can bend a standard medium sized screwdriver into a U shape with your bare hands, you are not likely to break the pins in those gears. Besides, they are soft steel. I have had to cut a few of those pins to get badly rusted columns apart. They are soft. I would not worry about heat damage unless the parts got near cherry red. Then the issue would be over hardening could maybe make the gear brittle.
I agree with loosening the gear on the pin with a mild abrasive paste. I would just work it back and forth with my fingers.
Good luck.
And drive carefully, but enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 06:47 am:

I can't thank you guys enough for all the info and advice, cause there's no way I'd have taken a steering system apart, otherwise.

As of today, as if by magic, NONE of the little planetary gears will fit on any of the pins without a struggle, so I'm going to get some green-label Timesaver and work with that until the stupid little gears fit on the stupid little pins. And if there turns out to be any interference with the teeth on the brass gear case, then I'll lap that @#*%+& in with yellow-label Timesaver. Hopefully, Pep Boys carries that stuff.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 09:37 am:

You won't find TimeSaver at the local parts store.

Just use a valve seat grinding paste, comes in a little can. That will work fine, just clean up with mineral spirits or lacquer thinner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 05:39 pm:

Problem Solved:

I took Dan's advice, got a tube of Permatex Valve Grinding Compound and used that to lap in the planetary gears. That worked very well and, after cleaning out all the grit-paste, I could flick-spin the gears with my finger in spite of the nice, close fit. Nothing like hand-lapping, I guess.

After cleaning out the old black grease and finger-dabbing in some new red stuff, I bolted and cotter-pinned everything back together and jacked up the front end, again. The steering wheel spun silently and the front wheels pivoted freely with a nice, slippery smoothness.

Two things:

I notice that in spite of the 1926-26 gear case and 5:1 ratio gears, there was no "stop pin" in the mechanism to prevent over-center steering. Guess that wasn't part of the after-market kit.

The other thing is; I can't figure out why one of the planetary gears had seized up in the first place. One would expect them to become looser with age, not tighter. Chalk it up to gremlins, I guess.

This newbie learned something new. Thanks again for the help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 04:52 pm:

Bob,

That longer stop pin is kind of important. Without it, your pitman arm can go over-center at extreme right & left turns. Bad news if you then want to return to going straight ahead and have to wrestle the steering back over center to do it. Especially when you don't realize what the hell the car just did in the first place!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 06:17 pm:

Jerry,

My car's previous owner did a ton of modifications for me that included installing a full, 12-volt electrical system and self-starter, swapping out the original over-the-axle wishbone with the later type and a bunch of little things like an external oil line, transmission screen, etc. And, because the steering column was already out of the car when I arrived to make the pre-purchase inspection, I asked whether it would be much trouble to switch the steering gears to the slower 5:1 ratio.

At the time, that seemed to be no more than a matter of ordering the steering shaft and gears and just slipping them in where the old parts used to be. That didn't turn out to be the case because, as I was told, aftermarket Model T parts tend to be of differing dimensions than the original Ford parts and, in spite of advertising claims to the contrary, the new 5:1 gears could not be made to fit in the original 1915-vintage gear case.

The answer to the problem was to swap out the original gear case with a 1926 type. That involved chiseling out rivet heads and bucking new ones, stripping off nickel plating and polishing the brass beneath, not to mention the actual fitting of the clockwork inside. I was told, after the fact, what a difficult job this was—and that made me feel kinda bad because had I known what was going on, I'd have just told him to use the original gearing (though I've driven both types and have to admit that the slower steering ratio makes for much more enjoyable driving).

Anyway, I'm guessing the lack of an over-center pin was part of the improvisation necessary to make the system work. Perhaps the aftermarket pin wouldn't line up with the slot in the gear case? When I finish writing this, I'm going to go jack up the front end again and see if I can induce over-center steering. Then, I'll deal with what I discover.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 07:38 pm:

Wow Bob, quite the process! Some things can go that way can't they? Whatever you find, I hope everything ends up safe & sound. Happy T'ing!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 07:54 pm:

I wonder if the problem might be better duplicated by compressing the front spring and possibly compressing it more on the opposite side from the direction of turn to simulate the car leaning to the outside of the turn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 11:35 am:

Regarding over-center steering:

I jacked up the front axle, placing the jackstands close enough together that they would not interfere with wheel travel, and cycled the steering from lock to lock, back and forth. While doing this, I watched the pitman arm to see whether it would pass horizontal (center) and go into reverse-sense steering. I was pleasantly surprised to find that even without a stop-pin in the steering gear case, the pitman arm remained below horizontal. Here are some photos of the geometry:


In the above photo, you can see what stops the pitman arm from moving over center. The spindle arm comes into contact with the forked end of the axle, thereby limiting travel.


Here's another photo of the right-hand spindle from above. It's easy to see why the spindles can swing only so far.


Above, you can see the position of the pitman arm while the steering wheel is turned to the extreme right. It doesn't get anywhere near horizontal.


This is the left spindle in a full left turn. Same deal here: The movement of the spindle arm is restricted by contact with the axle.


And this is the position of the pitman arm in a full left turn. Again, it doesn't get anywhere near horizontal, so over-center steering is geometrically impossible (at least on my individual car).


As you can see in the above photo, there's a lot of travel in the spindles and this looks to be between 35 and 40 degrees from centered. This Model T can make very tight turns.

What I found will very likely not be the case with a lot of Model T's because I had the original, 1915-vintage, over-the-axle wishbone replaced with the later, under-the-axle wishbone, and some other parts also had to be exchanged to make the new geometry work. At least where this individual car is concerned, the lack of a stop-pin in the gear case is not a safety issue.

Again, thanks for all the help and advice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 01:39 pm:

Bob:

The steering pins for the little gears are standard .375 dowel pins which you can purchase at McMaster Carr. You can usually buy them in various lengths but you can grind off the top end to thus make a new longer pin by shortening whatever they sell. Like you I also tried to put the 5:1 gears in my son's 1916 roadster brass gear case and they would not fit. There was no way to use timesaver since there was no way to get all of the parts into the gear case in the first place without splitting the brass case. The Ford drawings clearly show a different gear pitch on the brass case and gears than the 26/27 gears so whoever said they would fit never actually tried it on a good normal fitting gear case. It has to be a totally worn out case. I have seen just about everyone in my chapter try this without success so I am disgusted with the maker who seems to make the case that they fit routinely. I did the same thing you did in just swapping the whole gear case - buffing off the plating and polishing up the brass to make the whole gear case column and all from the 26/27 except we retained the outer steering column tube. I put all 3 new dowels in the gear case and it was a very nice fitting final steering that looks the same as 1916 ever did but drives wonderfully. I don't believe the pins are typically soft - at least mine weren't.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, May 25, 2012 - 06:44 am:

Bob

Good that you checked out the turning radius of your '15 and are satisfied.

The stop pin was designed for the '21 cars, as on-going improvements Henry deemed necessary to his low price car.

Here are some sketches of that part.



and comments by M. Fahnestock



And note that the 4:1 case (on right in photo) and the later 5:1 case grooves for the stop pin, the later groove is longer due to the action of the higher ratio gearing.

As normal, many T parts from 1909-1927 can be interchanged, but care needs to be done to research any interference fits or design compromises.


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