Battery/Starter/ Electrical system perplexing problem.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Battery/Starter/ Electrical system perplexing problem.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Adams on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 11:13 pm:

My Depot Hack came with an Optima battery which was sort of cocked up in a manor putting the positive cable above the battery rack frame and the negative end down lower than the battery rack frame. I wanted to position the battery more level so I went to work.

Details may be lengthy but I must give them… all is very puzzling.

Like on Monday everything worked OK (strong starter and all)
Like on Tuesday I do a cleaning up and brightening of all battery cable contact areas/surfaces.
Like on Wednesday I put everything back (same cables) and tighten all contact areas but get no current sufficient to turn the starter…
but… after several seconds (10-15) a coil would buzz….. push horn button and buzz stops… after several seconds a coil buzzes again… then can usually sound the horn, may have lights (but no starter).
Thinking there may be a worn out or cracked (original) battery connector on the bat/start cable… I order and replace with a new one….still the same results.

Can a Float charger all of a sudden appear to keep a battery at full charge even if the battery may have developed some internal fault?

Is the next trial and error to buy a new battery? I believe the battery to be 2 years old. It has a M10 sticker on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Adams on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 11:41 pm:

I meant to include some pictures.
Gene


understarter optimabattery


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Borland. Bathurst. NSW. Australia. on Thursday, May 17, 2012 - 11:41 pm:

Charge the battery and do a load test to see if it is OK or stuffed.

Peter


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 01:06 am:

It does sound like an open circuit cell to me. A battery that can't deliver useful current and shows full charge with a voltmeter type display, with charger connected, is indicative of high internal resistance.
So yes, a float charger can appear to show it fully charged if the battery is faulty.

Still worth trying to charge it on a cheap constant current type charger - if it draws hardly any current it's stuffed.

2 years is a short life - unless it hasn't been maintained.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 02:48 am:

As a person who specializes in wiring and electronics, I can safely say that electrical problems are hard to track down without actually being there in person.

I will say this, though. I've heard that a few years ago, Optima switched it's production plant from the US to Mexico. My, friend who owns a battery shop, said that ever since Optima made the big change, he's had more returns on Optima batteries than any other kind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 06:34 am:

Sounds like a dirty / corroded / loose connection at one of the battery terminals. Disassemble each terminal and scrape the inside of the battery cable ends with a sharp knife until there is a mirror like shiny surface. Then scrape the outside diameter of the battery terminals to achieve the same shiny lead surface.

After assembling the battery terminals coat the outside of them with wheel bearing grease to prevent corrosion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 08:07 am:

The ground strap looks very suspect in the photo.

Just hold the starter button down for a minute and look for smoke of feel for a hot contact. A bad connection might be rather warm, perhaps warm enough to burn a finger.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob from Nova Scotia on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 08:34 am:

I second Royce's opinion, and will add to check the connection at the frame where the ground strap connects. Mine rusted last winter, and when I tried to start it, it actually got hot enough to burn off the frame paint


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug - Braidwood (glow in the dark), IL on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 08:41 am:

First purchase needs to be an analog volt meter. Then you can troubleshoot. Otherwise you are shooting in the dark.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 11:52 am:

First purchase needs to be a lead/acid battery.
Use the Optima for a core.
Less trouble, cheaper, more reliable.
I just dropped our last Optima off last night for a core we owed the battery place.
At first I did not like them but over a 12 year period of using them I learned to HATE them!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 12:15 pm:

Aaron - I think the key factor in what you just said is the fact that during the first of those 12 years, Optima batteries were made in the USA; for the last several years,.......not so!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 12:22 pm:

Want to check a few things? Do you have a decent set of jumper cables? Hook them up to the battery with the cables off the battery. Hook the free pos. cable to the starter terminal and use the ground clamp on the engine to complete the circuit. How does it crank? Don't tap the starter terminal with the pos. cable it will wreck the connection on the starter. Cranks OK/Good? you have a bad connection in the car's starter circuit. Cranks poorly? Bad batt. could save a few $$. Those braided cables on the Neg. are dicey. They build internal resistance in the braiding and won't carry the current no matter how good the connections are.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Adams on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 12:58 pm:

If it is not the battery, I do suspicion current not getting through somewhere. I did especially brighten up the frame at the negative ground area with a wire wheel in a drill. If I don’t get a starter button response I don’t know how I will feel for hot spots.

With the comments given about Optima batteries I can imagine all sorts of possibilities.
I don’t ask the seller of the T about battery care because I may not necessarily get an answer that means anything. He said he sold the T because he wasn’t using it as originally anticipated. Who knows how many times this battery has run down and was rejuvenated.

I appreciate all the attention given to my subject by all you fine folks on the Forum. Thank heavens for the Forum. I just received a very helpful (personal) message from one of you who gave me a lot of ways to go about diagnosing.

A big thankyouwords to all.
Gene in Virginia
Beach


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 01:21 pm:

That looks like a repro starter switch. If so take it off, tape a dollar to it and throw it as far as you can. Then when someone finds if it, they will have a quarter. Dan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 04:09 pm:

Hey guys I think for one thing the battery might be in backwards. I think the top post red top batteries with 3 cells have the positive on the right hand side when the label is right reading (meaning you can read it right side up). Thus if the car has had a charger on it connected negative ground - well you probably have ruined the battery. M10 is not a date code since the maker of these types of batteries uses a 4 digit date code including a Julian dating. Look on the side of the battery for a white sticker that says "non spillable" and then look on that sticker for a 4 numerical digit code. The first digit is the year of manufacture and the next 3 are the day of the year. Thus a 9265 means it was made on the 265th day of 2009. 0265 is same day of 2010 and 1265 is 265th day of 2011.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Pitts on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 04:50 pm:

Just looked, positive on the left when reading label.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 06:10 pm:

I got the "positive on the right" info direct from Optima but I think the tech was wrong as a blanket statement since I too noticed some of them have the positive on the left. He said all red top batteries were as I stated but I saw some on their web site that appeared to be the other way as you noticed. I don't think the battery is marked wrong - I think the phone tech at optima had it wrong. He didn't seem to be the brightest bulb on the string. I think he did give me the correct date code info since I read that info later on a different web site by a dealer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Adams on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 07:28 pm:

Charlie B. & Jim G. both mentioned the braided ground strap.

My good neighbor, Neil, giving me a hand, found it to be the dead link.

groundstrapmontage
Groundstrapauto
Thanks to all.
Gene in Virginia Beach


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 07:50 pm:

Gene
Replace the AutoZone ground strap with a 1/0 or equivalent cable with silver soldered (not crimped) terminals. The strap you selected is a #2 or #4 cable and is not appropriate for a 6 volt systems. If you don't you will be back trouble shooting this same problem later.
Model T 6 Volt systems require 1/0 cables for every part of the starting motor power system.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 09:48 pm:

Jim G also told Eugene that he could not get a correct 1/0 or 2/0 cable or ground strap at AutoZone or any other local auto parts store.

Jim G could not find Ron's chart of the starter current requirements to share with Eugene today.

Eugene is on the right track for improvement anyway.

It still is not as good as it can get.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 04:25 pm:

Tractor Supply has 1 gauge cables. Not silver soldered, but 1 gauge nonetheless.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 05:13 pm:

1 Gauge is still a size smaller than 1/0 or 0 Gauge and two sizes smaller than 00 or 2/0 Gauge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug - Braidwood (glow in the dark), IL on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 07:57 pm:

I bought 2/0 cables from Farm and Fleet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eugene Adams on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 08:23 pm:

This is worth a celebration. What better way to celebrate than to enjoying a peppy tune played by a neat chick in the Andre Rieu band from Belgium.
This gals performance is cheeky, mischievous, joyous, enchanting, and quite brilliant.
racketysax
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHJwFlye-RM 2 min 46 sec

Play this loud and at full screen (bottom right end icon under the picture)
Gene in Virginia Beach


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