Front axle dating

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Front axle dating
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Rimmer on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 06:10 pm:

Hello,
can anyone help with dating of a front axle please? It is stamped as T30201 and is a different shape to the later T axles. Please see pictures.
Thanks,
Richard


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Rimmer on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 06:13 pm:

Sorry about the poor quality of the pictures, I've tried to add a better resolution one!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Rimmer on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 06:15 pm:

And another attempt!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 07:30 pm:

I think that might be the English or European style front axle. See how the ends are higher than the common variety front axle. This makes the car lower to the ground.

Herb


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 07:30 pm:

If you're interested in dating a front axle, ask it's father. With Dad's permission, you'll get in less trouble if you happen to bring it home late.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 10:39 pm:

Eric,
LOL, that was my first thought when I read the thread topic.
I am not the expert here, but very similar axles have been shown before and said to be English or European. Remember, in the early decades of the past century, they had a lot more paved roads than we did. They didn't need as much ground clearance. That lowered it just a bit and looked better there.
Given the wishbone position, it also looks to be a fairly early one.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 11:46 pm:

Richard,

Yes, it appears to be one of the English "Drop Frame" or "DF" front axles. They were introduced early in calendar year 1924. They were continued through the 1927 UK model year and to the UK supplied production in Europe (see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/289192.html?1337381221 ) But when the improved cars came out (1926 year model) the spindles were changed to the USA style 1926-27 spindles and the DF spindles were discontinued but the DF front axle continued to be used. (Ref page 154 of "The English Model T Ford" Note the wishbone went on top of the DF axle rather than below the axle.

See additional details at the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/202362.html Some photos of drop framed parts are shown below with DF for drop framed:










Scroll down to chapter 7 of the English Ford Book at: http://www.modeltbook.co.uk/chapter-by-chapter.html

And more drop frame photos etc. at: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=208240

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Rimmer on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 02:39 am:

Thanks guys,
interesting stuff! I knew the spindles were different on the English drop frame cars but I didn't realise the axle was different too!
Many thanks,
Richard


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 05:07 pm:

And I keep learning! Thank you.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Katy, Texas on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 11:12 pm:

Eric Dysart, I was going to say something cute like you, but you stole my thunder. In my lifetime, I have dated a few women that were as straight as a Model T axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 09:03 pm:

Thank you to Richard Rimmer for sending me a better resolution copy to add to the posting. It should make it easier for folks to identify the axle in the future. The axle is laying flat on the concrete floor with the wishbone sticking up in the air. You can clearly see how it attached above the axle -- but with the hole through the wishbone end similar to the 1919-27 USA wishbones that mounted below the axle and not like the pre-1919 USA wisbone that mounted through a hole in the spring perch.





If someone has access to a UK Price List of Parts book, would they please check to see if the number shown on the axle T-30201 if I read it correctly -- is the Factory Number for that style axle? The illustrations from the UK price list of parts came from Mar-Apr 1985 "Vintage Ford" and are used by permission. Additionally a UK or similar Price List of Parts would give us an estimate on when both types of frames (Standard and DF) were used. On page 35 of the same Mar-Apr 1985 "Vintage Ford" it shares:

"The rear cross member with a higher crown (2854-DF) is illustrated. The use of this
member also required different side rails and reinforcing brackets. Ford of England
apparently used both the standard and the drop-frame chassis in production between
1924 and 1927."

I would like to find out more about that if anyone has additional information. It makes sense that Ford of England would make and sell the 1924-1925 either way -- but I would really be surprised (not the first time) if Ford of England continued the Drop Framed chassis into 1926-27. Perhaps they meant the Drop Framed front axle with the normal 1926-27 front spindles - which we know Ford of England did. Again and leads (including page numbers in the "English Model T Ford" book (I have been looking but I have not been seeing it) would be greatly appreciated.

Again, thank you Richard for the better resolution photos.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 04:25 am:

Hap, I haven't got the UK parts book but I do have a very used copy of the swedish may 1926 price list of parts. Here is a scan of the side showing front axle parts, likely similar to the US parts book from the same time:
part book1
The note below says: For the 1925 and 1926 low models see the supplement in the rear.
Here is the supplement in the rear:
part book2
The main part of the book has factory numbers listed, but not the supplement. Perhaps the Manchester plant organized their production in a different way than Dearborn?

I'll have to retract my idea about the reason for the use of US spindles on the drop frame axles for 26/27, since apparently the european 26/27 fenders are different after all - but the list of special items on the low european version is considerable diminished from 56 part numbers for 1925 down to 16 part numbers in 26 - all of them fender parts by then. Ok, some of the 25 DF parts were used on the 26/27's too.
I can translate the part names if you like - later.. after work :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 04:32 am:

Seems like I'm wrong too - the parts book clearly shows by the crosses alongside the spindle part # that the 1926 european low model used both the DF axle and the DF spindles - the mixed versions I've seen may have been made up in more recent years. Likely not all the cars sold in Sweden were the low model since I have seen a lot of the standard 26/27 spindles here too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 07:06 am:

Roger,

Thank you so much for posting the Swedish 1926 price list of parts. The first page uses the same illustrations as the Aug 5, 1928 USA Price List of Parts. That makes it very easy to cross check without a translation.

The 1926 supplement may be using the Factory Numbers as the only number to reference the parts. That is based on a sample size of "1" and would need to be confirmed from some other sources or additional samples of other parts that also showed a number. That "1" sample that matches is the front axle its self. It has T-30201 on the forging and is also listed as "30201 Framaxle sankt (there should be two dots over the "a" -- I need to look up how to do that again) 1925-1926.

If we do not find a similar page(s) from a UK or English printed version, I will probably send you a list of the words I need translated. Many of them I can figure out from the USA price list of parts. But the supplement I do not have a similar listing.

There is also a number on the spindle of the DF spindle arm but I cannot quite make out what number it is. We will look more at it later.

As you read through the pages -- does it appear that that the both the dropped frame as well as the regular frame cars were sold during 1925 as well as 1926 or is it difficult to tell one way or the other?

Again, thank you so much for the additional information.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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