Model T Brake Drum Groove

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Model T Brake Drum Groove
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 08:23 pm:

So here's a picture of the transmission of my '24 T. What do you all think about that groove in the brake drum? It looks too even and smooth to be done by rivets or something like that. I'm wondering if it was machined in there from the start, possibly to keep oil flowing in the brake band while the brake was applied. I heard from somewhere that it is possibly an aftermarket replacement drum. Is there any truth to that? Anyway, what do you all think? Or is this drum just shot?

Oh, and a while after this picture was taken, I removed the engine and transmission from the car, cleaned everything up, replaced a few things, and put it all back together. In a few years I'm going to do a full restoration and everything's going to get redone anyway.

Model T Transmission


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:13 pm:

Nice try, but the groove was worn in there. Will it hurt anything? No. It will run for a long time and will eventually provide more contact area for the band once worn in. Personally, I'd use a Kevlar Bands and never worry about it. Of course I'd use Kevlar bands even if it wasn't worn. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:15 pm:

I would never use anything other than wood and with the hogs head off is a great time to install them.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:19 pm:

Kenny,

Already done. I took the hogshead in this picture so I could replace my disintegrated low band. I love the kevlar bands, so of course I had to use them.

I didn't think that that groove would be a big problem. I plan on getting a brand new brake drum when I do my big restoration. It just needs to hold out for a few years!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:22 pm:

My dad's unrestored '23 coupe has an identical brake drum. I believe it's an contemporary replacement item. The groove is very even and symmetrical, and way too deep not to have been cut through if it was a standard drum. Obviously there is additional metal underneath it. To cut a groove like that, the rivets would have to be at least 1/4" above the surface of the lining; not too likely, methinks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:22 pm:

Stephen,

One of the Ts I regularly drive has wood bands, and they always seem to chatter. That's just from my experience, though.

The Kevlar bands were a gift from my brother. As a college student with almost no money, that was a big plus!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:23 pm:

R.V.,

That's exactly what I figured. The groove just looks too perfect to be worn in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:27 pm:

My wood bands chatter too but, of course it is only for a second or two before the drum is completely stopped. I found that putting a little marvel mystery oil in the engine helps ease the chattering.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:29 pm:

There were accessory drums with the groove already machined into the surface. I saw some that were NOS at the Bakersfield swap many years ago, called "OilCool" or something similar. The groove is obviously machined into the surface, and I think they are a little thicker too. Not sure if that is one of them or not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:31 pm:

Anyone ever seen an old ad for one of them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan Two Rivers Wisc. on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:32 pm:

Practice using that long lever on the left a few times to see what thats about! Just an FYI...
We had a 26 with a Warford that would jump outa gear when backing down... ws




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 09:46 pm:

I had a 1927 transmission with grooves like that in all three drums.

They were very even and must have been done on a lathe for some purpose.

They never caused a problem after the transmission was put back together and in the vehicle again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, May 18, 2012 - 10:11 pm:

I can see a good reason why, a machined groove like that would serve 2 functions, oil for the friction heat transfer and eliminating the rivet wear. I have bonded bands with oil grooves machined around them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 02:30 am:

Grooves like that are usually the result of someone using steel rivets in the bands at some time. But yes, there were some drums made that way.
I would recommend wood linings on a scored drum. They are the least likely to shred.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 06:54 am:

I also have two drums that are essentially NOS with grooves that were machined in. I brought this up several years back and was told I told that I was crazy and it was the work of the rivets.

You've got a neat accessory Cameron. And one that actually serves a purpose. I say use it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 02:00 pm:

Dan, I am hard headed and have never seen a drum that appeared to have factory grooves. I have a number of model Ts and there is no real pattern to the grooves in the drums. Usually the low speed drum has the most grooves. If someone could find some old advertisements showing drums with grooves, I would have to believe there was such a thing.
PS word of warning, too deep grooves can weaken the drums and they could break.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 08:48 pm:

Willie - I am not talking about grooves from wear and tear that you can feel when you run your fingers over the drum like little ridges. The drums that I have are perfectly smooth with one groove that is perfectly machined...about 3/16" wide and about a 1/16" deep. If this was done by brass rivet as some suggest, then I suppose I have a new idea for a milling machine that I should trademark.

I agree with you about the weekness of the metal at these points. However, the cooling effect of the oil that would run through this groove may offset the heat fatigue a bit.

I should mention that I have more than one of these drums. The likelihood of the exact same pattern being worn in the exact same place with the exact same depth is not likely.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Stephan Two Rivers Wisc. on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 08:57 pm:

Steel rivets... ws


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 06:17 am:

Dan B., Please post a picture of the drums.
Also check to see if they are Ford Script drums.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 11:37 am:

My thread from a few years back with pictures.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/151631.html

Drum is not stamped Ford...to my knowledge. Have to recheck.

Note, as I mentioned in the original thread, I have the rest of the transmission assembly including the magneto. I would imagine that if a steel rivet was strong enough to cut through a drum like that, there'd be plenty of metal shavings to go around in the tranny. I'd think that it would destroy the magneto windings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 01:10 pm:

Cameron,

I'm not so sure what looks "perfect" about those grooves. They are irregular in that there are two of them and the one is off center to the drum width. They were worn that way by the use of steel rivets at some time in the past or by the total loss of band lining on a portion, or maybe all of, the brake band. Can't speak for RV's experience, but your drum is worn that way.

Now, does it matter? Probably not. It doesn't look too deep.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 04:35 pm:

One of these days I'll have to remember to bring my camera when I go over to the storage facility where Dad's coupe is kept. The brake drum on that car has a groove that is clearly cast into the surface. It's dead center of the drum, has the rough surface typical of a casting (on the inside edges of the groove), and clearly has extra metal beefing up the whole area. It's about 1/4" deep.

I wonder if the outfit making these was Canadian, since Dad's car is, and they seem to be rare but not unheard of in the US.


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