Hand cranking a car that's been in storage for years - Need some help!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Hand cranking a car that's been in storage for years - Need some help!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 11:14 pm:

Guys,

A couple weeks ago I drug home a 1913 Touring car that's been in dry storage for probably 40 years. As it was told to be by the former owner's son, the car was running when parked. I had really hoped to get it running for our local AACA show today but after working until 1:00 AM this morning with absolutely no success I finally threw in the towel. I worked a few hours this afternoon with no luck either, so I figured that I might give it a shot here. I'm sure that I'm overlooking something little or stupid, but at this point I can't figure what it might be.

Here's a rundown of what I've done so far:

• Rebuilt the entire fuel system. Tank was clean (spotless, actually), rebuilt the sediment bulb, rebuilt both a Kingston L2 and a Holley NH
• Have fresh 6 volt battery hooked to the battery terminal on the coil box
• Removed the timer, cleaned the roller and contacts, checked for shorts in the timer housing
• Checked for continuity in the wires from the coil box to the timer
• Verified that the wires from the timer to the coil box are in the correct locations and the correct order (firing order 1,2,4,3 with 1 being the upper passenger side terminal on the timer)
• Tried a cleaned and gapped set of 1960’s reproduction Champion X plugs as well as a new set of Motorcraft F11’s. Both sets gapped to .035”
• Hooked all four plugs to their respective wires, set the plugs on top of the head and verified that they all have a hot blue spark when cranking the motor around slowly
• Starting at TDC on #1, slowly cranked the motor around two full turns and verified that each plug fires in the proper order
• Verified the timer linkage is adjusted correctly. Set motor on TDC for #1 and verified that the coil just quits buzzing when the spark lever reaches the top.
• Pulled plugs and squirted raw gas into each cylinder.
• Pulled plugs and squirted ether into each cylinder.
• Shot ether up the carb while cranking
• Checked that the float bowl is full of fuel
• Have NOT checked compression with a gauge, but when hand choking the car (palm over carb inlet) it pulls a very strong vacuum. That tells me that the rings and valves must be sealing fairly well.
• Have NOT checked the point gap on the coils, but each one will jump a ¾” gap while grounded. Also they were borrowed out of a good running car, so they should be good enough to at least get it running.

Now I know I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I think I’ve covered my bases fairly well. So far I’ve not heard one cough, spit or sputter out of this thing, even when spraying ether directly into the cylinders. Even if it didn’t start, I would have thought it would have coughed or sputtered a little. Nothing…. Also, I know from previous experiences that it’s often tough to get one to draw fuel up into the cylinders when it’s been dry for so long, so I squirted some raw gas into each cylinder but still nothing. Plugs are dry as a bone…..

So does anybody have an idea of what I might be missing? I'm to the point of dragging it behind my truck in high gear.

Man, my arm is TIRED! I gotta get this thing running soon.....


Thanks,
Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 11:30 pm:

I would suggest checking that the spark occurs at the proper time. Take out the # 1 spark plug. Watch the valves (you will need a flashlight) and when both are closed watch the piston come up. At that point use a pen or a plastic straw and continue cranking very slowly with the straw or pen resting on the top of the piston. You are trying to determine exactly where top dead center is on #1 piston. Practice a few times and you will figure out exactly where TDC is.

At that point turn the key on and the spark should happen a bit after the piston begins to move down. If it does not happen at this time you need to find out why. Typically you will find that a replacement fiber cam timing gear has a few missing teeth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 11:34 pm:

.035 gap is a bit much. Try something lower like .028 or .029. That is where mine run best. Before trying to get it started again put a little marvel mystery oil into the cylinders. This will improve the compression and un-stick the rings if they are stuck in the ring grooves. Are you sure gas is getting to the carburetor? How do you have the mixture adjusted?

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 11:37 pm:

Thanks Royce, but I already checked that. I thought I had listed that in my original post. The coil does not begin firing until the piston just begins its downward movement. If anything I may have it a bit too far retarded, but not by much. In checking it this afternoon, the piston had moved maybe 1/16" (1/8" max.) downward before the coil started firing. And this is with the spark lever fully retarded....

I'm stumped!


Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 11:41 pm:

I would have a friend pull the car in high gear to start it then. Connect a tow strap to another vehicle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 11:42 pm:

If you do pull the car around do not wrap the strap around the front axle. Pull it by the frame.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 11:43 pm:

Stephen,

The mixture adjustment is something that I neglected to mention earlier. Being that I've not had either of these carbs running on another engine, I wasn't sure where either one's "sweet spot" would be, so I've tried both of them all over the board. Everywhere from fully closed to nearly 3 turns open (which I expected to completely flood the engine). Float bowls are filling properly with both carbs.

As for the plug gap, I'll tighten them up tomorrow and try again but even at .035" these things have a seriously hot spark. I'd think it should be enough to at least light a cylinder once in a while. So far not one single spit or sputter.....


Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 11:49 pm:

Deron

I was in exactly your position 8 months ago. Needless to say I got her running. My arm to was about to fall off after trying all you have tried and then one morning...off she went and putted away as happy as could be as if to say 'well of course - what did you expect". I have had comparitively little problems since that day. So much for moral boosting......

If you have compression, spark at the proper time, and roughly the right amount of fuel...it HAS to at least kick over.
I would
-pull your plugs once more, make sure they fire in the proper sequence AND at the proper time (put something down the plug hole to confirm TDC or just after.

- put a tablespoon of oil in each cylinder and do a rough compression check by holding your thumb over the plug holes one at a time while someone cranks the car. The oil is always a good idea when starting an engine that hasn't been run in awhile.

- a squeeze bottle for ketchup or mustard with a little gas in it attached to a 2 ft piece of vinyl tubeing is a great way to get a little raw gas directly into the carb inlet. Put in about an oz. and keep an extinguisher nearby.

- try opening the throttle a little (up to 1/3), my liz insists on a partially open throttle. Be SURE to chock the wheels or tie the rear axle to a tree (you might get lucky).

- watch that crank hand, it will start when you least expect it.

Remember, if the above conditions are met it has to start!

Good Luck
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, May 19, 2012 - 11:57 pm:

Check the exhaust system and make sure it is clear. Maybe a mouse built a nest in the tailpipe in the last 40 years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 12:05 am:

Deron, the plugs will spark when not in the cylinder but when compression is involved that is a different story. I would re-gap the plugs and start out with the needle 1 to 1.5 turns out. Some carburetors are very easy to flood. If I accidently flood mine it will not chuf, spit, sputter, nothing. As long as you have fuel, ignition, and compression it should start. Good luck.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 12:30 am:

What's your 20 (location)? Maybe we can put you in touch of some help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 01:07 am:

Deron,

On the surface it sounds as though you did your homework.

The only thing that I might add to all of the above is assuming coils that 'work' in another car may be good enough for yours. They may 'work' in a sense with all of his settings, may not work in yours as you are chasing loose ends trying to find 'middle'.

The more items you can make 'spot on' the quicker you get there.

Fuel...fresh and vaporized on draw from carb. With all you have tried, I am surprised you haven't had a puddle under the carb from time to time. Do you even smell gas when you choke or find a 'dribble' from excessive choke? Soft close on carb needle, one and a half/one and 3 quarter open will start any T! May burn your eyes out and make the CO sensors in the house go off, but it will start until you can get around to adjusting that.

Ignition...correct timer setting/coils set right on HCCT or Strobo/ correct firing order. I'd put the spark gap back less than 30 or about 30, the average of averages takes the gap out of the equation, all else equal. Do check that under compression your old 'X's don't have an outside spark trail...rare....but it bit me in the butt once last year on a car I was doing for someone and cost me a day...only caught it at dusk...wonder why?

Compression...I've seen cars with 10 fool folks! They even eventually start and run around with a 'put-put' but ask them to perform and they wheez!

Go through each and everything one more time, might even want to try having someone spraying ether at the intake manifold ring seal to block.

If you had even a wheez and a sput I'd tell you to put the rear up on stands, chock the front wheels and hand stick totally forward...but without a sput we can't tell if it is clutch plate drag keeping it from catching and I'd expect at least a 'cough' if that were the issue.

You are sure of what you have done and have fuel, ignition, and compression, I'd wholeheartedly agree with Royce...soft tug around the back 40 until it wakes up may be just what the doctor ordered.

Hals answer is equally good...sing out where you live, guys just love stopping by. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 01:14 am:

One other thought...if your coil box has carbon tracking or if you washed the car in anticipation it was going to run...all bets are off as visual ignition of a spark existing goes away the second you seal it up...the old path of least resitance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 01:37 am:

I would add a couple of more ideas. First jack up one rear wheel. Don't laugh it will help with the cranking. I would also put a few squirts of oil down each cyl and crank the engine through several times with no spark plugs. Both of these steps will help with cranking the engine over.
My 14 took most of a day to wake up after sleeping for close to 15 years. After the first start it started quite easily the next time.

Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 07:40 am:

Could there be a rat nest in the exhaust or muffler causing a pressure buildup? Several years of nesting by varmints could totally pack the muffler. Is the fuel cap vent open? How does the sediment screen look? Sometimes the simplest things can be overlooked. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Victoria Australia on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 08:14 am:

tow the car up and down your street, squirt oil down each piston first, remember if towing, the engine must be turning over to prevent damage to the trans discs, leave the plugs out initially, if it sounds smooth towing it and it stops with the brake,pop the spark plugs back in a.d slowly pull again, it'll fire up, just be ready for that, it can catch you by surprise, it will smoke for about 10 mins from the oil, but that will clear too.
warning..............make sure your tow rope is Long, or you could be wearing the back of your tow vehicle, make sure your tow vehicle driver is watching your hand movements....
hope this helps and good luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 08:27 am:

Keep in mind it may well have been parked 40 years ago because it quit running...

BTW, I usually don't respond to questions from people who don't reveal their location in their profile.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Harper - Keene, NH on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 08:58 am:

Hi Deron,

I'm sorry to read that you are having so much trouble starting your car, and being a stem winder adds to the level of discontent.

You mentioned that you removed the timer for a good cleaning. If you removed the roller to clean it as well might you have remounted it 180 degrees out of position? Your 1913 has the roller's retaining pin hole drilled all of the way through the camshaft, allowing one to inadvertently install the roller in the wrong position. It might be worth your time (three or four minutes) to change the roller's position and have another go at it.

Good luck with your project. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 12:35 pm:

Deron

Model T's were not designed to run in Alabama so you need to send it to New Hampshire! :-)

It looks as if you have done everything right.
Try jacking a rear wheel as suggested, putting the brake lever half way down, and choking the car for a few turns of the crank before trying to start it.

Choking = ignition off, spark retarded (up), throttle full on (down), pull choke rod and give it a few hard cranks. You should hear it make a wet sucky sound and see gasoline spray near the carb. Next push the throttle to about 1/4, and turn on the ignition. I use a 12 V battery and many times I get a free start. In fact I almost got a free start when I first prodded my T awake after 45 years of sleeping.

PS make sure you have the T outside because the smoke will get every bug in the neighborhood.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 12:46 pm:

Ricks surf city, don't worry because I typically don't take advice from people who don't reveal their location or full name in their profile either. Looks like some of us got that information wiped when the forum got hosed up a few months ago, so please go wipe the egg off your face....

To everyone else, thanks for the good advice. To follow up on a few of the suggestions, the exhaust is new so if that's the problem, Snyder's is gonna have some 'splainin to do. I'm 99.9% confident that the timer wires are installed correctly and that the roller is oriented right, but I'm headed back to the shop after lunch to go another round with it. I'm going to start from scratch and double check all the basics that I've done so far, add some Marvell Mystery Oil to the cylinders and see what happens. All the Sunday morning church traffic should have died down by then so I can get out my trusty old tow rope and go for a ride around the block. The more I think about this, the more it seems like it's just been dry for so long that it's having trouble drawing fuel up into the cylinders. I have yet to see a wet spark plug, and I've had them out so many times now that I'm surprised they still have threads on them!

Hopefully I can post back tonight with good news!

Thanks again for all the good suggestions,
Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 12:48 pm:

If you jack up one wheel, put the brake lever all the way forward so the transmission is in high.

If you have never done this before especially with a newly acquired and unfamiliar Model T, for added safety you may want to jack up both rear wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 01:20 pm:

Thanks, Deron, for the correction. My state is now listed in profile as well as city, which has been in my name for 15 years on these Forums. Funny that required profile items were blank.

I went to school at Redstone Arsenal a hundred years ago: Nike Hercules. Enjoyed the scant free time we had there.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 01:38 pm:

Rick,

I'm constantly amazed at just how many folks I've run into in the old car hobby that spent time at Redstone Arsenal! Not sure when you were here, but I suspect that it's changed a little since then. ;-)

Now I'm off to do battle with the troublesome T. Wish me luck!


Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Spaziano, Bellflower, CA. on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 02:12 pm:

Deron,

Just a thought here. I see that your car had been in storage for forty plus years. I also see that you've checked the carb. and it's getting plenty of fuel.

One thought that comes to mind is that, since it's been in extended storage, it may have had visitors that at one time stayed at the "Intake Manifold Hotel." It's not uncommon to find a mouse nest in the intake manifold after long periods of storage.

This situation would prevent the passage of any flammable vapor into the combustion chambers. If possible have another person hold their hand over the carb. opening to see if there's any vacuum at the intake. You did mention the fact that you were surprised that the spark plugs were dry even though there should be plenty of fuel getting into the engine.

Check your exhaust valves too. They can stick open and cause this problem.

Hope this helps. Good luck.

Mike.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 02:19 pm:

Is it possible that mud dauber wasps could have crawled through the carburetor and made nests inside the air intake and possibly the intake ports? If so, that would effectively stop the fuel spray from getting to the cylinders. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Deckman, Ogden Utah on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 03:06 pm:

Blow out the fuel line. You did not mention that.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 04:56 pm:

Without reading every post on here. Make sure you have gas at carb. It sounds like you might have your ignition too retarded. I would try advancing the spark a bit. I just helped a guy start his and it did the same thing with electric start I advanced the spark quite a ways and it took right off. Being as you are hand cranking I would not go full advance but 3-5 clicks should be fine without kicking back.

Good luck.

J.O.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 05:06 pm:

I read your message of how far past top dead center it sparks and that's a bunch. Advance the spark and give it shot...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By SSGrant on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 05:23 pm:

I would pull each spark plug and check compression on each cylinder. I had a car setting for 4 years and two valves were stuck open. After un-sticking the valves I am back on the road again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 05:49 pm:

All I can add is gap the plugs to 0.025 and I am still worried about the valves and springs. If all the effort you just put in has not worked, I would pull the head and really look at the valves. I bet one or more are not kosher and the springs are probably not all optimal either. It will need new springs anyway. This also gives a chance to clean and inspect the valves/seats and touch them up with grinding compound at least. I had one that had a valve keeper pin eat through the extra thin (non ford) valve spring retainer, letting the spring fall off the valve.

Let us know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 06:06 pm:

You can tell a lot about an engine by checking the compression. You should have about 50 lbs psi on each cylinder. If one or more has 0 or very low compression, it is an indicator that either or both valves or rings are bad. Since the original pistons on the Model T were cast iron and the rings were steel, both are subject to rust and the rings could be frozen in place in the ring grooves of the piston. This condition might give enough vacuum to cause a suction at the carburetor, but not hold compression when the piston is moving up. Pulling the car at a faster speed could allow it to keep enough compression that it would start, but would not have much power and would not idle smoothly. You really cannot get the carburetor needle set right without the engine running, you can only guess about 1 1/4 turn off the seat. The actual sweet spot can vary depending on the carburetor. So I would first check compression. Other causes of low compression are valves sticking open or burnt valves, timing gear off because of broken teeth. If you get very low compression, you will need to pull the engine down and check the valves. At that time it would be good to replace the rings and grind the valves. If you have any of the original two piece valves, they should be replaced, because they are known for breaking and causing damage to the piston or head. Ricks has a good idea, that maybe the car wasn't running when it was parked and so it will not run now unless the problem is fixed. Anyway, first two things I would do would be to check compression, and try to start by pulling. If that doesn't work, you have your work cut out for you. One thing I and others have found is that if you pull it apart, you need to repair or replace everything you can find wrong with it while it's apart. It's easier and less expensive to do a complete job, than it is to do it piecemeal and have to pull it down again and again until you get it right. If you don't have the shop manual, now is the time to get one, also the club booklet "Engine" would be a good one to have.
Good luck.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 07:35 pm:

I have read through this post twice and I get the same impression. Known fuel in cylinders with no explosion means to me regardless of everything else, NO SPARK or weak spark. It doesn't matter if it is timed right, or there is no compression, it should at least backfire or pop. I had a magneto on a jeep motor that did this same thing to me. It turned out that the Points had a problem with carbon on them that would let the plugs fire sitting on the head but when installed the spark was not enough to fire the fuel mixture. Look for a short in the coil box that sort of thing. I don't think all the coils would be bad at the same time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 08:50 pm:

It is always hard to armchair mechanic as issue like this. When I have this problem, I always go back to the basics. An engine needs four things to run but I have only seen three things listed here.

It needs air, fuel, spark and compression. Air has not been explicitly mentioned before. Air and fuel needs to be at about the right mixture. Spark needs to be at the right time.

Just offhand maybe check for plugged or leaking intake manifold. As said be before, a choked carb should leak a little gas and a flooded engine should show some gas on the plugs. If it gets flooded, it can be easily cleared by shutting down the mixture adjustment and turning over a few times.

Spark timing can be checked by looking at the pin in the crank fan pully, probably more accurately them the piston method. Look at the pin that your starter crank engages, it should be a little past horizontal when spark first occurs. 15 degrees ATDC = 30 minutes of rotation and the closer to TDC, the easier it will be to start. Be very careful about advancing the spark lever if you don't know exactly what the timing it when hand cranking, especially if you are cranking with your right hand. Sooner or later it will fire.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 09:00 pm:

Send your coils to Ron Patterson to be checked. They might be bad or, at the very least, need adjusting. Sure help my T run better. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tman - Right Coast on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 09:00 pm:

I've had a few barn find cars that wouldn't start the first time until we pulled started them around the block than after letting them run for a while they would start right up with the crank. It seems that they cranked too tight to start. After we let them loosen up they were fine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cecil Paoletti -- Rrnton WA on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 12:01 am:

I wonder whether the fiber timing gear, if it has one, can survive turning a cam shaft that hadn't moved in 40 years. Perhaps a few teeth have failed and shifted the timing: perhaps the timing is 180 degrees out. If there is sufficient compression, a combustible mixture in the cylinder and a spark happening at the correct position of the crankshaft the engine will start and run. Somewhere I read that the minimum compression ratio for an internal combustion engine to run was somewhere around 3:1. If the engine has set 40 years a good tow may be required to free things like rings up and coat the cylinders, pistons, camshaft and bearings with oil to both free and seal up the engine internals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 01:25 am:

I thought I'd add a quick follow-up on today's events for anybody who might be following this thread, and then I'm going to go ice down my arm and hit the sack...

• I started out by running back through the basics one more time, just in case. I removed the timer and re-verified that the four wires going to the coils are installed on the proper terminals and in the proper order. I also removed the sheetmetal shield behind the roller, just in case it might be grounding the contacts in the timer housing (which it wasn't). The cam in this engine is a later style with the hole only on one side, so there's no chance the roller is 180 out. Then I checked for continuity between the contacts inside the timer housing and the coil box terminals. All good....
• Closed up the gaps on the Motorcraft F11 spark plugs to .030"
• Rechecked the adjustment of the timer control rod. With the #1 piston just barely past TDC on the compression stroke, the coil does not ground until the spark lever is pulled down one notch. I realize that this might not be 100% correct but it surely should be close enough to run.
• Hooked all four spark plugs up to their respective wires, set them on top of the head and verified that they all had a good hot spark while cranking the motor around, and in the proper order.
• Put a little Marvel Mystery Oil in each cylinder just in case, and then cranked the motor around numerous times to get everything lubricated nicely.
• Verified that there are no stuck valves by watching them through the plug holes. All valves open and close smoothly and properly.
• Removed the carb and blew air back up through the intake. With the plugs removed I had air coming out into the cylinders one at a time while cranking the engine around. Just for grins I also checked that the air was entering the cylinders in the proper order of 1, 2, 4, 3. While I can't say with certainty that there is no obstruction in the intake manifold, it positively isn't blocked completely.
• As for checking compression, I don't have a pipe thread adapter for my compression gauge (yet...) so I had to rely on the redneck way of checking it. I got a good rhythm going on the hand crank and had a helper put his thumb over the plug holes one at a time. Each cylinder produced a healthy "pop" when coming up on the compression stroke, so I know it has at least some compression. I know it isn't scientific, but it was the best I could do given the resources at hand.
• Substituted a good hot 12v battery for the 6v unit that I used yesterday.
• Rechecked that the float bowl was full of fuel.
• Swapped in other known-good coils just in case.
• Mixture screw open 1 1/2 turns and the throttle open about 1/4

Having done all of the above I was certain that she would fire right up and motor off with no further problems, but boy was I wrong.... No amount of cranking would get any results other than a few more blisters on my hand and a sore arm. Squirted a little fuel into each cylinder and still nothing. Squirted some ether into each cylinder and still nothing. At one point I even drained some fuel out of the carb bowl, poured it into the gravel and lit it with the torch just to be sure that I didn't get some garbage gas!

After some head scratching I pulled the plugs and noticed that they seemed to be oily wet, which I assume to be a result of the Marvel Mystery Oil, so I heated them with the torch to burn off any residue and dry them out. I reinstalled the back three and positioned the #1 piston at BDC coming up on the compression stroke. Then I took my MAP gas torch, filled the cylinder with gas and quickly reinstalled the plug. I cranked the motor around and it fired 5 or 6 cylinders in sequence, let out a bunch of smoke from the muffler and then promptly died again. That was the only sign of life I got out of it all day, and several more attempts with MAP gas netted exactly zero results.... At one point I even got out the oxy/acetylene torch and tried filling a cylinder with acetylene but that didn't work either. Don't laugh, a buddy of mine who is a diesel mechanic once told me that's what they use when a diesel engine is being cantankerous. I figured that worst case it'd blow the head off and then I'd at least have an obvious problem to fix!

I ended up running out of daylight before I had a chance to tow it around the block, so that'll have to wait until tomorrow. Hopefully that's going to be all it needs, but at this point I'm really starting to wonder.

One thing that I did notice today which seemed a little out of the ordinary though. In studying the piston/valve motion I noticed that the intake valve doesn't close until right after the piston crosses BDC and just starts back up on the compression stroke. This isn't too uncommon in the race motors that I fool with, but I wasn't sure if it's normal for a stock T camshaft. Has anybody here ever paid attention to that? It has me wondering if maybe someone changed the cam gear and got it a tooth off. The timing cover doesn't appear to have been disturbed, but it's a possibility. I'm not too wild about ripping into the front of the motor just for a look, but if that's what it takes then so be it, although I'd think that even if the timing gear were a tooth off it should still attempt to run, however poorly.

So tomorrow's a new day and hopefully a little more productive. I have my tow rope ready, my fingers crossed and my fire extinguisher handy....


Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 04:01 am:

Here's a thought.

I was working on one of my friends Ts, and we were in a similar situation. It had a working starter motor, and even with that, we could barely get it to run for any length of time. Finally, after nothing worked, we pulled the head off, and it turns out that the valves weren't seating! We had even tried your method of checking compression, and everything seemed fine.

My advice would be to pull the valve cover off and check for valve clearances. When seated, there should be around .010" clearance. Of course if there is any clearance, the engine should run, and if you never find a point when there is any valve clearance, then as you can imagine, the valves aren't seating. Remember than in a T with stock tappets, to set the clearance, the valve has to be removed and the stem filed down.

With my friend's T, apparently someone had installed new valves and didn't know that they had to file the stem down, so the stems were just too long.

If the valves are seating, the next thing that I'd check is valve timing. The valves and/or seats themselves could be shot as well. That's the problem my T was having.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 04:08 am:

If the valves take what seems forever to close after the piston starts coming back up the cylinder that is pretty normal i found. Mine will not start cold unless the mixture screw is at least 2 or 3 turns out, Not sure if that info' will help you but it might.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Kaminar on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 06:34 am:

One new idea: Try filling the radiator and engine with boiling hot water.

If the engine fired on mapp gas after cleaning the plugs, perhaps the plugs are getting oiled.

Neil


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 07:30 am:

Sounds like an electrical or timing problem, since you squirted fuel into the cylinders and nothing happened. Have a friend spray starter fluid into the carb while your cranking


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 07:50 am:

Deron,

Get yourself (Or make) one of those spark testers that has a variable gap. They should have one at the local parts store for less than $5. Set it to 1/4" gap and check your spark again on each cylinder. Don't go more than 1/4", as it's not good for the coils, but the wider gap will tell you what's going on when the cylinder is under compression. You may find that the spark finds another path when it is presented with the wider gap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Lauderback, Milwaukie Oregon on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 05:31 pm:

As has already been said several times, often a car that is stubborn like this will start if you just tow it a short distance. I have certainly had that experience, and since you already have a sore arm, what've you got to lose? If your car doesn't have a choke on the dash, make provision for a temporary choke wire of some kind; good ol' baling wire works well! Since you already got it to "fire 5 or 6 cylinders in sequence" the timing can't be too far out, although it does sound like it is a bit too far retarded. Take it out for a tow, advance the spark a bit, choke it, and I bet it will run!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 07:09 pm:

I am sticking with giving it a bit more advance. Open the screw 3-4 turns till it floods out then close it off. New engines and old like this that have been sitting around will need a richer mixture for a bit anyway.

Pull the choke and crank it over till gas is pouring out of the carb then open the choke and give it a pull or two. If it is pulling gas it will pull it to the chamber to fire.

Again, you were saying before it didn't spark till 1/4" past tdc so that equals 10 or so degrees of crank rotation.. Try to set it for top dead center it wont kick back and will give the most kick to start it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roar Sand on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 07:42 pm:

To help a recalcitrant engine get going, I have many times used a heat gun to preheat the intake manifold.
If a heat gun wasn't available, wife's hair drier was used.
My 26 touring also sat for 40 years, 1964 to 2004, but I had drained gas and water and poured oil in the plug holes and cranked her over a few times every few years.
Just a thought.
Roar


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 07:45 pm:

Jerry,

I must have mis-typed because the spark begins when the piston has travelled roughly 1/16" (no more than 1/8") past TDC. I can advance it maybe 1 click on the lever before it's firing just as the piston reaches TDC. Any more than that and it'll be trying to light before the piston stops its upward motion. Regardless, I had to spend the day doing paying work (UGH!) and didn't have a chance to fool with it until about the time it started pouring rain outside. Just my luck.... IU'm thinking of naming this car after my ex, because it sure has been a pain in my ....

Something that crossed my mind this afternoon while I was watching it rain though. How heavy of a wire was originally used to feed power to the coil box? I have 12 gauge wire temporarily run from a battery on the running board to power the coils, and it dawned on me that they might not be heavy enough once the spark plugs are subjected to compression. Just a thought...

I'm like a lot of you guys in that I think a tug around the block will do the trick, but mother nature wasn't having any part of it today. Oh well, there's always tomorrow....


Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 08:07 pm:

12 gauge is plenty heavy enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 08:31 pm:

I don't think one possibility has been exactly covered though Cameron was onto it.

Often after an extended time the valves tend to glue up in the guides. They work fine if you turn over the motor but are slow to close because of drag from old thick oil and rust,you pull the crank and they don't follow down with the followers. You have compression, the timing is right the spark is Ok everything is as it should be but the actual momentum is upset and the motor can't fire.

You say you have seen them open and close through the spark plug holes but that won't tell you if they are dragging behind.

Take off the side plate and have someone look at the valves ( or better still get them to crank while you look) to see if the valve lifters go down and the valves stay up longer before they also drop down. Without the plugs in and the wheel off the ground you should be able to get the revs up a bit so that this is more easily seen cranking slowly will make it harder to determine.

If thats the problem some WD40 or similar put in through the plug hole onto the valve stem as well as from the underside and some more cranking to get the valves lubricated so they don't stick.

I used to have this problem when my car was in a garage when there was long periods of humid or wet weather, the stems used to get rusty.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Victoria Australia on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 08:47 pm:

Hopefully the rain clears and you get a chance to tow it a little, that'll clear up a lot of early problems, BUT if the motor is stuffed, its still gona run, albeit with some very ordinary noises, you've got compression ( thumbs good enough ), you've got spark, you've got fuel, hand cranking after that long has got to be for the .... well you know, pull it round and get ready for the engine fire under fifty or maybe 100 times the speed at which you can hand crank it.

Good luck David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Michael Rogers on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 08:52 pm:

With all this pulling of the crank, there has been no mention of flooding. I would bet there is a problem with fuel supply. Either the carb is stopped up or the fuel is not getting to it. If you pull one through enough to wear a blister, you should have some gas dripping from the carb throat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 10:23 pm:

The first time I started the '25 Fordor after a 25 year hiatus I wound up opening the carb needle at LEAST two full turns or maybe even more, throttle wide open AND choked it to get it to finally start.
Once running I turned in the carb needle and since then it starts as it should.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 11:37 pm:

Did you turn the key on? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 12:12 am:

Bob, good question, how about the wire connections behind the switch? You could hotwire around the switch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 12:20 am:

LOL! Yes Bob, I did have the key on but thanks for checking. ;)

I had mentioned previously that the carbs (both of them that I tried) are freshly rebuilt and the bowl was full of fresh fuel constantly. Not saying that I couldn't have goofed on the rebuilds, but I've built a number of T carbs over the years and know my way around them fairly well. And yes, there was certainly fuel dripping out of the inlet after extended cranking.

Something that I keep going back to in my mind though, is the fact that I've put four or five different combustible substances directly into the cylinders (multiple times each, too) and only ONCE has the thing even sputtered. Even if it didn't have a carb on it at all I would have expected some kind of spitting or coughing. Makes me really wonder if there isn't some kind of ignition problem that's only showing up when you add compression to the mix. I find it hard to believe that I have ten bad coils on hand, all of which produce a nice hot blue spark at the plug. It makes me wonder what could be the common denominator... That's why I asked earlier about the power wire gauge.

And yes, I plan to send Ron the Coilman a set of coils to rebuild/tune but want to get the car running first. A nice shiny set of rebuilt coils sitting on the shelf won't do me a bit of good if the motor has internal problems.

Anyway, this rain is supposed to move on out of here tomorrow so I'm not going to waste any more mental energy (I have so little to spare... LOL!) worrying about it until I've had a chance to tow it down the street.

Thanks again for all the good suggestions!


Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 10:55 am:

Bump

Keep this near the top - I love a mystery! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 11:18 am:

I'm waiting for the post that says...I got it running!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 11:28 am:

Me TOO


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 12:59 pm:

Sorry if it's been covered here already. Are you certain that the intake manifold does not have a vacuum leak between it and the block? What type of intake gaskets are you using? Gland rings & copper crush type gaskets? The "usual" flat asbestos type gasket that, for some odd reason, comes with a gasket kit?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 01:41 pm:

Hi, So with fuel added to the intake but dry plugs means a plugged intake. Worth taking a look at. Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Lauderback, Milwaukie Oregon on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 01:59 pm:

He stated was fuel dripping from the air intake after cranking, which should indicate there is suction to the carb.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 02:04 pm:

Has he poured some gas in each cylinder to make sure all cylinders have gas at least for a few seconds ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tman - Right Coast on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 05:53 pm:

As I said before drag the sucker!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 07:13 pm:

I'm sure I may have missed it as this post is getting long but are we still trying to run the oiled or fouled plugs? yes I did catch that you cleaned them and they were new at some point. also if all else fails pull the head and clean and lap in the valves in often they stick on the guides or they or plain worn. one more thing install new intake gasket a vacum leak can be trouble. If you do plan on driving this car all this work will pay off and you won't have to guess anymore. Good Luck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 08:02 pm:

Wow! 4 1/2 days! Your arm must need Ben Gay big time! I sure am glad I didn't have this much trouble starting my first T for the first time in 1972 after a 2 year restoration. I would have thrown in the towel, for sure! As it was, it chugged on the first pull coughed on the second and roared to life on the third and this, with a coffee can as a gas tank! It was, by far, the most exciting moment of my young life, as I jumped around the garage yelling like a banshee. A real Model T... and it works... and I did it... and it's mine! Wow!

Deron, I have a feeling you are going to have the same reaction when you finally get it started. I'm looking forward to hearing what the problem was, because I'm stumped, if you've tried every suggestion and it still won't run.

Deron is in Huntsville Alabama. Anybody live close enough to run over and give him a hand...or a fresh arm? Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 09:20 pm:

Sorry for the radio silence guys. I didn't realize anybody was following the thread! Been really busy with paying work the past few days, plus this is the last week of school here so I've been back and forth to the kids' school for all kinds of programs, awards ceremonies, etc... Haven't really had much time to worry about the T, plus I figured it couldn't hurt to let it sit alone in a dark corner and think about how bad it's been behaving lately! You know, a little "time out" for the terrible T...

Some of you asked a few questions that have already been answered, but to save you from having to go back and read the whole thread:

• Car has new plugs, Motorcraft F11's gapped at .030" - Have tried a cleaned older repro set of Champion X plugs same results
• Car has plenty of compression, no stuck or sticking valves. Absolutely positive.
• Intake is positively not clogged
• Have plenty of suction at carb
• Have no problems with fuel flow to carb. Bowl is full.
• Have put gas and several other combustible substances in the cylinders. MAP gas is the only one that got any results, and then it only fired 5 or 6 cylinders in sequence.

I understand Mike's logic behind pulling the head and lapping the valves, but I'm not willing to go there just yet. As I see it, the car has plenty of compression and great suction at the carb so there's nothing that really points to it needing a valve job touch-up. Right now that would just be doing work for the sake of doing something because I have no concrete proof that it needs it, nor any evidence that it would help the problem. Now imagine how frustrating it would be to go to the trouble of lapping the valves only to get it running and find a rod knocking or worse.... I realize that the valve job isn't 100% fresh but it's certainly good enough for the car to run. Once it cranks and I hear it run, then I can decide what other problems need to be addressed.

Having said all that, I got finished with my paying work for the day a few minutes earlier than I had planned so I drug my trusty 12v battery back out to the T and hooked it up. I opened the valve on the sediment bulb, checked for fuel at the carb and cranked it around a few times with the key off. I went back and re-checked the settings on my spark lever (down two notches from full retard, just in case I have it retarded too much), throttle about 1/3 open, mixture open 2 1/2 turns (up from 1 1/2 last time I tried). On the second pull it lit off and ran for a couple seconds, but died before I could get around and pull the spark lever down. After that, no amount of choke or ether would make it light off again. I finally called it quits after 15 minutes of cranking with no results. Truthfully, I think it was just trying to show me that it's still got the upper hand and it'll run when it gets good and darn ready. It reminds me more and more of my ex-wife every day....

Now that I've heard it run for a few seconds I feel a lot better about dragging it around the block. I just hated to resort to that until I was certain that there wasn't a bigger underlying problem, but now I feel comfortable that it's just been dry for so long that it needs a little help to get going. I agree with Royce and Tman though, all it needs is a good tow rope. I just need a few more hours in my days....

Me and the T are going to have a "Come to Jesus" meeting in the morning and it's going to start seeing things my way. Tomorrow's gonna be the day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 10:15 pm:

Deron,
Running for a second or two is a huge advancement!

I just did a word search of this thread and I see that the first time you ever used the word choke was this last post. Have you been choking some all along when you first tied to start it?

My guess now is that on the last attempt that it was flooded because of the rich mixture. If I would have got that response (run for a few seconds) I would have shut down (gently but fully closed) the mixture and cranked till it fired again, then set mixture about 1 1/4 and started it.

The normal mixture setting is in the range of 1 to 1 -1/2 open. Your 2-1/2 open sounds like it is way too rich to run.

The normal process from cold is mixture at 1 to 1 -1/2 open, choke for two compression strokes (no more), turn on key and start it.

Good Luck,
Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 10:21 pm:

Deron; Nice personal quote in your profile..... Please keep us informed on this! Interesting stuff!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Victoria Australia on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 10:30 pm:

Well done so far, dont forget BEFORE the engine fires up that you can stop it, try it on the pull around first, keep the engine cycling over as your being pulled, drive it home to the garage, if your encouraged enough OH !!! and you've got brakes...
Fingers crossed for you.

David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 10:34 pm:

Deron.......after your latest post I now think you still have a carb problem.
If it was getting gas it should have kept running even with retarded spark......did it just STOP, or did it sputter to death?
If it ran of gas it would just stop........if it sputtered to death it would probably be due to too much gas.
Either way, I think your problem lies with the fuel supply.
Have you verified a GOOD stream of gas at the carb connection? Will it continue to flow at a good rate from the carb bowl drain when things are hooked up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 10:45 pm:

Deron, I am sure there are more of us here that are just as excited to hear that you got it running than you might think.

Glad to hear you made some progress and I would still give it just a couple more clicks of advance before you give it a tow.

Reguardless of how you get it started,,,,GET IT STARTED !

Hope tomorrow is the day.

J


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 11:07 pm:

Jerry,
Remember that Deron is hand cranking this engine. Giving it more advance without verifying that the timing is not into the BTDC zone could very well put it into the kickback/broken arm range. We know that it will fire.

Deron, be very careful about advancing the timing just to see what happens, it may not be pretty.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 11:17 pm:

I know , I think I am just overly anxious to hear that it is running. Surely don't want anyone to get hurt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 11:20 pm:

I agree with Craig, when the fuel is low (not out of gas, just low) in my car, it starts ok but only runs for a few seconds. After a couple of minutes it will start again, but only for a few seconds again. Put in a gallon of gas and it will start and continue to run. I'm not saying that you are necessarily out of, or low on gas, just not getting enough to keep up with what is required.

Gavin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 11:28 pm:

He had said earlier that the float bowl was full. I would have to think it would run for quite a while on whats in the bowl.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 11:48 pm:

Just saying what happens on my car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 12:15 am:

Thanks for all the words of encouragement guys. Actually I've owned this car for well over a year, but due to a very unexpected (and unwanted) change in marital status I chose to leave it in storage until a few weeks ago. So I doubt any of you want to hear it run worse than I do! ;-)

To answer a few of the questions brought forth in the last few posts, yes I've been using the choke on and off throughout this whole process. I put 5 gallons of fuel in the tank at first, so it must still have at least 4 1/2 left. When it did light off I really wasn't expecting it, and it was so short lived that it was over and done before I really had time to process what had happened. It was kind of funny because I had my 12 year old son standing watch over the spark lever and had instructed him to pull it half way down whenever it started, and about the time I realized that it had started I looked up and he was so bored with the whole process that he'd laid his head down on the edge of the seat. His head jerked up with eyes as big as saucers just about the time it petered out and he just had this bewildered look on his face, almost like "what just happened?"

As for the timing, I'm 99.9% certain that it's set properly judging from where the piston is when the coil begins to buzz, but I did have the lever pulled down a couple notches just for the sake of trying. Several folks seem to think that it's too far retarded so I figured that it wouldn't hurt anything to try. When using my hand I'm always pulling upward so I'm not too afraid of a kickback. To be honest though, I've resorted to putting the crank at the top and using my foot to push it down now. I can spin the motor faster that way, although I do realize that it's not really proper protocol. Once I get it running reliably, I promise to go back to pulling up with my hand so hold the flames for now.

I can't rule out a carb problem just yet, but I'm confident that there is a sufficient fuel supply. The bowl will continue to drain for as long as you leave the valve open. Looking back on it now, I agree that I should have probably closed up the mixture before attempting to crank it again. I'm thinking that I probably flooded it by trying to crank it again with the mixture so far open, but sitting all night should let it dry back out. If I'd thought about it I'd have pulled the plugs out before I left to let everything air out, but to be honest I'm so sick of unscrewing them that I just wasn't in the mood.

Yep, tomorrow's going to be the day. I can feel it! Stay tuned....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gavin Harris on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 12:41 am:

Deron,
I didn't get my first T until after the demise of my marriage. I tell the story that I bought the car to replace the ex. and the car gives me much less trouble.

You know the story; if its got t-ts or tires it's bound to give you trouble.



Gavin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 08:15 am:

Gavin

Having trouble with a cow? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 09:13 am:

I guess the worse thing you can do to make the ex-wife mad is to name a stubborn, old car after her. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 09:39 am:

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 10:48 am:

You know, after the poop hit the fan one of my buddies gave me the best piece of advice that I got from anybody. He said that the best revenge is to live well and be happy, which holds a lot of truth, but I guess that naming a cantankerous old car after her wouldn't hurt. On second thought, I really hate to to that to my car. I kinda like it.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 01:17 pm:

Deron, happy to hear the car has sighs of life. after you get her running more consistent. You may consider a few things, guessing from the unknown is it possible your car may still have orig. style 2 piece valves? If so this may be a problem at some point as they tend to come apart often with a bad result to a good engine. The other two concerns centers around safety Does your still orig. babbitt thrust washers in the rear end? This is a big deal and can have tragic results Aka blown rear end=no brakes. and finally what shape are your bands in? I have seen dry rotted bands disinagrate after a little use, not good for the motor or your safety. sorry if this comes off negitive but a unknown car can be a dangerous car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 01:36 pm:

Going from 1-1/2 turns to 2-1/2 on the carb between a series of hand cranks is a huge jump and a stab in the dark.

When making adjustments while trying to start, turn it no more than 1/4 at a time. You said 1-1/2 isn't working for you. The next adjustment should be 1-3/4, then 2, then 2-1/4, etc.

Likewise, if opening the carb isn't working, then close it 1/4 turn at a time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 03:25 pm:

No matter the type you have, a properly adjusted carburetor is crucial. For instance, if you have a Holley NH, the measurement from the top of the float to the flange should be precisely 15/64" or 1/64th" less than 1/4". This will ensure that the needle valve opens and shuts at the proper times and at the correct level as the gas level raises and lowers. Of course for this to hold true you must also have the correct thickness flange gasket.

Is the float needle valve opening properly when the float lowers and sealing air tight against the needle valve seat when the float is as high as it will go? You can test this by sucking on the inlet elbow as you gently hold the float up so that the needle valve is seated against the needle valve. If you can't suck any air through you have a good needle valve. If the valve does not seal, this could be a problem and you will need a new needle valve and needle valve seat. The new neoprene tipped needle valves provide the best seals. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Arthur J. DeLorenzo on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 04:44 pm:

Deron:
Have you given any thought to CARBON TRACKING?
Maybe you can borrow a different coil box from one of your buddies and try that. Nothing else seems to work. What have you got to lose?
Art


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 05:22 pm:

Yeah, I'm wondering about that too. Sounds like an ignition problem to me. One of the adjustable gap spark testers set to 1/4" may very well show the problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tman - Right Coast on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 09:09 pm:

An old saying never put off till tomorrow what you should have done yesterday.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 09:42 pm:

Ok fellas, check this out:

http://youtu.be/8BXEi5v1srs

I knew the timing was set right..... All it took was a drag down the street, just as a couple of you suspected. And the best part is that this is an NH carb that my 12 year old son built for his speedster project (with a little supervision). He just insisted that we try it to see if it worked.


Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 09:49 pm:

Tman,

Are you sure about that? I always thought it was "Never do today what you can put off until tomorrow"....

After I let the car run for a while I flipped it over to the mag and it ran perfectly, so I took the battery out of the front floor to have a little foot room. Once I was sure that everything was OK I turned my 12 year old loose in it and off he went. Not sure how many miles he put on it riding in a big circle in the field next door to the shop but he sure was having fun. At one point he even stalled it and she cranked right back up on the mag, so I'm feeling pretty good! Now I just need to start addressing oil leaks. She's got a few!


Deron

You know, now I'm starting to feel guilty about threatening to name the car after my ex. That wasn't very nice of me.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 09:49 pm:

EXCELLENT!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 09:52 pm:

A HA... A water pump! I knew it! Seriously, Good for you and your son!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 10:07 pm:

Yeah, I suspected that water pump was the problem all along! LOL! Seriously though, the way I see it it's on there, it doesn't leak and it seems to work OK so I'm going to address the other problems first. Once I get the thing to stop marking its territory on my shop floor then I'll see about getting the right cylinder head on it and removing that water pump. One step at a time....

Here's a few more videos:

http://youtu.be/Gh6uOaeBMmw

http://youtu.be/yw9pS2wqvFg

One thing I did notice that I don't recall on other T's that I've worked on is that the brake seems excessively "grabby" (can't think of any other way to describe it...) The bands look to have been fairly new when the car was put away and they're plenty thick, so I wonder if they're just not good and oiled yet.


Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 10:22 pm:

WOO HOO!
I bet you are ONE HAPPY DOOD....... :-)
I know I am.......


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rich Stinchcomb, Trumbull, CT on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 10:41 pm:

Congratulations! Music to one's ears. Really enjoyed the videos and a great looking car.

Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 10:56 pm:

Congratulations!
It's a great feeling....especially after all the trouble you had getting it going.
It's nice you have your 12 year old involved, too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 11:15 pm:

Thanks guys, and I especially want to thank everybody that took the time to offer up their opinions and suggestions about what might have been the problem. All too often we see a post like this (not necessarily on this forum) where nobody cares enough to even try and offer help, so I really do appreciate the time you guys spent.

And yes, I'm very happy that it doesn't appear to need any major engine work. Now that I know that I can begin ironing out the bugs to get it dependable. Biggest things on the list right now are some oil leaks and a set of properly rebuilt and adjusted coils. I'm also anxious to see how easily it cranks tomorrow once it's had time to cool off. Once I got it running today it started on the first or second pull every time, even on the mag, so I'm closer than I was!


Thanks again for all the help and great suggestions!

Deron


And yes Bob, my 12 year old is certainly involved. Heck, once I showed him how to work the pedals he took off and wouldn't come back! LOL!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 11:19 pm:

Looks like you guys will have fun with that one. Do you suppose the engine color made it hard to start?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 11:31 pm:

I'm sure it wasn't helping matters Steve! I think it was so ashamed of itself with the hood off that it didn't want to run...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Friday, May 25, 2012 - 12:10 am:

Deron,
Good job!

Make sure that when your son or anyone that drives it pushes the low pedal down firmly to fully engage low gear. Looks like a lot of slipping of the low band in the video. You don't want to burn a band out right away.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Friday, May 25, 2012 - 01:39 am:

Been busy and just saw you got it running. Very good news and great job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 25, 2012 - 08:56 am:

Glad to hear you got it running. It's good that your son is involved too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Friday, May 25, 2012 - 08:58 am:

YEA !!!!!

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Great news -- Mystery solved..


And you got the added benefit of arm strengthening exercises!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Victoria Australia on Friday, May 25, 2012 - 02:26 pm:

Well done Deron.

David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, May 25, 2012 - 02:50 pm:

This guy had the same problem you did. He had the spark advanced when it finally cranked and it backfired. Luckily he kept a firm hold of the crank and the car spun backwards...:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, May 25, 2012 - 04:18 pm:

My goodness, the boy's deformed. Reckon he got that way without steroids? I kinly doubt it.


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