Thermostat installation

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Thermostat installation
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chester Leighton on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 09:14 am:

I recently bought a thermostat to put in the T from Langs. It didn't come with any installation instructions. I would like to know the correct direction/orientation to install it and what the gasket arrangement looks like. It did come with it's own gasket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 09:33 am:

The safest way to install it would be to put it back in the box. Then send it back to Langs. It won't improve anything on your Model T. It will provide a new place for failure to occur one day.

The cooling system on your car was not designed to use a thermostat or water pump. The things you need are a good radiator and a good mix of anti freeze and water so that good radiator doesn't accumulate rust and sediment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 09:58 am:

OTOH, Royce, the cooling system in a T was not designed for efficient running on $4 a gallon gas. Modren cars will show a drop in fuel economy if you change out from the specified 195 degree thermo to a 180.

-----------------
There should be an arrow on the stat. Regardless, the body goes into the head where it gets heated by the engine output.

I've been running the same thremostat from Lang for 15 years over 50-100K miles. Been running them in all my other cars since 1958, and never a failure.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Harper - Keene, NH on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 10:04 am:

Hi Chester,

I run a thermostat.

When I had to replace the unrepairable radiator on one of my cars I "made the mistake" of buying a flat tube radiator for better cooling. I say "mistake" because it cools TOO well. My engine would never get to normal operating temperature. I HAD to install a thermostat for the poor thing to run well.

I realise that not everyone will have this experience and there for Do What Works Best For YOUR Situation.

As to installation orientation of the thermostat, the bulb end goes into the cylinder head.

Good luck with your project. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 10:30 am:

Royce is not always correct, but on the thermostat he is correct. They work the best in a thrash can, not on the T.
Here in Texas there is no such thing as "cools TOO well".
The temperature does not instantly jump up to operating temperature, but after a little running it is up to "operating temperature" and with a good radiator it does not hit the extreme and start boiling over.
If the cooling system does the above described operating conditions, I am happy and the T runs great. What more is there??????
Those individuals with problems with the T maybe should buy "New Chevrolet" cars and give those troublesome Ts to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will,, Trenton,,,New Jersey on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 11:13 am:

Yup, This time I fully agree with Royce on this issue. Other than the box it came in the other best place would be next to that water pump on the shelf marked useless parts that will never be used.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 11:38 am:

Yup, when something works for some, and other say it won't, the only reason is, they are at the end of there Aptitude!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 12:11 pm:

Chester, I will answer your question so you can install a thermostat rather than get up on my high horse to crow about the flaws of thermostats. Anti-freeze will add temperature to your boiling point. For every pound of radiator pressure you will raise the boiling point of water by about three (3) degrees. Model T radiators will take about five (5) pounds of pressure I don't know how much the anti-freeze does to raise the boiling point. Modern vehicles use a 15 pound radiator cap and that raises the boiling point about 45 degrees. Using a thermostat and antifreeze together will successfully keep your radiator fluids at a constant temperature. I am building a BBR Rajo engine with 8.5 to one compression Ross pistons, Miller tubular rods, an inch and a half Carter BB1 carburetor or a one and half Winfield, and a nasty Joe Gemsa cam shaft. I had Brassworks make me a 1913 radiator with a huge top tank thicker sheet brass construction and a six row core. It will run a seven and a half pound pressure cap and a 180 degree thermostat. It will cool a well known modern 350 cubic inch engine. As a side note my wife and I both had V W Rabbit diesels back in the late 1970's Mine ran hot and hers ran very cold hardly raising the needle on the temperature gauge. Hers got 40 miles to the gallon and mine got 50 miles to the gallon. I changed her thermostat and up went her mileage figures.

Now for the physical installation of installing a thermostat. Place the thermostat under the upper radiator hose connection flange located on the front of the cylinder head. You put a gasket on both sides of the thermostat and one in the center surrounding the body of the thermostat You will have to trim this by hand using either scissors or a very sharp Exacto knife. The center gasket must be exactly the same thickness as the flange of the thermostat and everything goes together much like a sandwich. Sometimes you can get an air lock that will keep you from getting all of the chambers filled with water and so some folks like to drill a very small hole in the thermostat (1/16") to let the air escape when filling the chambers.

Model T's discard all of the water they expel and it spills on the ground the pure earth folks don't like you to spill antifreeze on the ground because it tastes sweet and animals will lick the spilled fluid and die. So cars, trucks, and buses all have over-flow bottles on them. It's good to have an overflow bottle on your model T also. You have to remove all leaks from the system and when the radiator boils over the fluid flows through a tube to the overflow bottle and when the water cools in the radiator it forms a partial vacuum or an imbalance of pressure and the ambient air pressure pushes the water back into the radiator and engine block. I attempted to use neutral words to illustrate my story. Some folks say it is sucked in by the vacuum and others say it is pushed in by the higher pressure on the outside. I will bet this post starts another argument between the sucking and blowing readers who post on this web site ;~)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 12:28 pm:

The fluid flows from a source of high pressure toward a source of lower pressure.:-) How's that for neutral?:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 01:31 pm:

Right on Hal. There is no such a thing as a vacuum, there is nothing but an imbalance of pressure.

I used to teach carburetion and used to prove that the air pressure acting on the float bowl pushed the fuel up the tube into the spray nozzle. I also taught that outgoing exhaust gasses could pull in the incoming gasses when there is valve overlap in the combustion chamber.

Whoops, is that vacuum ? ;~)

My lecture room had two doors in it. I used to open the outside door and then close it 'till it rested on the latch and was open just a crack. I would walk across the room and quickly open the other door and the outside door would slam shut because of the outside pressure.

I had a little stationary engine with no intake cam and would run it for the students. As the piston moved down in the cylinder the imbalance of pressure opened the intake valve. At slow speed the intake valve didn't open very much and so it only got a little bit of air fuel mixture and ran slow. as you enriched the mixture the explosion pushed the piston harder and pulled the valve down more and it ran faster. They could not believe that you didn't need a cam to open the valve.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard Paulsen, San Buenaventura, Calif on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 01:40 pm:

Don't think the question has been answered in its entirety, unless I have overlooked it.

The spring part of the thermostat, the part hat sticks out the farthest, goes toward the cylinder head.

I just installed a thermostat and it came with one gasket that had exactly the cutout for the thermostat's diameter. I installed it with that single gasket and it's not only tight but works perfectly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 03:52 pm:

\quote[The spring part of the thermostat, the part hat sticks out the farthest, goes toward the cylinder head.]

Not so. Installing a thermostat backward will delay opening. The cylinder or bulb goes toward the engine or hot side. The bulb controls the opening, not the spring. When the wax in the bulb melts, it expands and opens the valve. The spring is used to compress the wax during cooling and close the valve.

If you are going to run a thermostat, install it in the outlet with the spring toward the radiator. This puts the bulb on the hot side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 04:11 pm:

Ops. Check the design of your T-stat. Many have the spring and bulb on the same side. Whatever type you use, place the bulb/cylinder end toward the hot side.

Sorry for the confusion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 05:26 pm:

I am no expert first of all. I have run my T with and without a thermostat. I figured the cylinder temp being at the best temp for combustion would be better than having the cylinder be to cool for optimal combustion. I figured the thermostat would hasten head heat-up and regulate the head temp at an optimal level. I watched the motometer and saw it go up and down under different conditions (no water pump). At some point I figured the stock thermo-barf system would do the same thing with heat/fluid density gradient so I took out the stat. I found the car warmed up and functioned with no notable difference. I figured the water would flow more easily without the thermostat in the way.


I then later replaced my radiator with a new one that cooled far better than the old one (and is leakless, unlike the old one). I do not see how the engine will over cool as the water will flow only if the temp gradient is great enough.

These assumptions are based on the thermosyphon system cylinder temps being in as good or better range than the temps with the thermostat in place.


Also, there is the originality issue. I like originality and saw no improved function with the thermostat, so I no longer use it.

Sorry for the rambling answer. I hope it made some sense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 08:16 pm:

Erich, I have to agree with you. I don't see how a T can run too cool. I have had four different radiators on my coupe. The first one was the original round tube style, it didn't work very well, but the car was driveable. I now have an aftermarket flat tube style that works great. It doesn't overheat on the hottest days and will warm up to normal on days when the temperature is in the middle twenties. Just my experience. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 08:29 pm:

I should also say that since the new Berg's radiator (very fine quality American made), I don't run the fan anymore either. I do keep the belt under the seat just in case.


I do have to wonder......For a T, what is the optimal cylinder head temp or coolant temp?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Sunday, May 20, 2012 - 08:52 pm:

I thought that, with the thermo siphon system the engine attained its optimum operating temperature automatically once it warmed up. That is, the engine heats the water until it exits through the upper water outlet and enters the radiator, then gravity causes the water to move down through the radiator, being cooled by the air flowing over the fins by the forward movement of the car and the pull of the radiator fan that also blows the cool air across the engine and out the hood side louvers. When the cooled water gets to the bottom of the radiator, it exits and enters the engine block through the side water inlet and the process starts over. Seems like a thermostat and water pump only serve to interrupt this delicate balance. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 03:46 am:

Jim, my thoughts exactly. Again, just my experience, I am by no means an expert. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 10:00 am:

I don't understand what the advantages are for holding the water in the block until it attains a certain temperature when the system was designed to constantly circulate and why would anyone have a water pump AND a thermostat on their T? Seems like a paradox to me. The water pump wants pull the water from the radiator and push it through the block as fast as it can, before it has had time to sufficiently cool and the thermostat wants to keep the water in the block until it has attained a certain temperature.

What do you want? The water to go through the system as fast as the water pump can push it, or hold the water in the block, until the thermostat decide to open and let it go through? You can't have both ways and to try, seems that it would be detrimental for your engine, especially if the thermostat went bad and they do go bad, it would burn up your engine before you knew what was happening. Just run it like Henry designed it. After all, he did know what he was doing for the 18 year run of the T and he would never do anything to hurt his baby. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willie K Cordes on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 10:13 am:

Well said Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 10:20 am:

Why is it nearly every car since the T has both? The dynamics are no different.

Ford proved he didn't know what he was doing with cooling in the earliest 1909, with its waterpump and shallow head. In his defense, he no doubt was rushed in the design of the first en bloc cylinders.

Did recognition of the need for greater cooling come into play when he went to the high radiator cars?

Which brings up another point: not all Ts are of the same design, nor operating in the same environment, so what one needs, the other may not.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Harper - Keene, NH on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 10:57 am:

I am compelled to post again and in agreement with Ralph; most cars do have a water pump and a thermostat, as does your modern daily driver. They have these items as part of a cooling system designed to maintain Normal Operating Temperature over a wide range of operating conditions and temperatures.

Normal Operating Temperature is essential for efficient combustion.

And as Ralph said, all Ts are different.

As I said in my original post: Do what works best for Your situation.

Enjoy your car and have fun. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 11:55 am:

I guess Chester's question has been answered, so a little thread drift is OK. I like my T's with out a water pump or thermostat. Why? I guess some of it is because that's the way they were originally, but the other part of it because I think it is just neater than crap that it will work without one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug - Braidwood (glow in the dark), IL on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 12:27 pm:

I'm curious how many 20hp cars are made today. What would the radiator size be for a modern thermocycle cooling system of a 200-300hp vehicle? Don't the pumps increase cooling efficiency so they can run a smaller radiator? Just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 12:51 pm:

This is one of those Threads I had to read every one.

RDR said it correct as did a few others. We have the same discusion in our group over and over.

There is one reason they use a thermostat now and that is because it works better.

Asked earlier about how it worked and why. The answer is new cars work the same as a T except that the cooling system does work better than needed. The thermostat then regulates the temp of the engine by letting cooler water enter it when needed. It then closes once the 180 or whatever temp is reached again untill it gets warmer again.

If you take a thermostat out of a modern car now one of 2 things will happen. It will never get warm or after driving it it will overheat. This is because the water in the Radiator never slows down long enough to transfer the heat. That is also what a Thermostat does.

At this point I do not have either on my car but if you put a pump and thermostat in it Should work fine. My only opinion is a thermostat without a pump might not work well because it will reduce the free flow of coolant while it is open.
Good luck Chester


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 01:26 pm:

I never bought into the "Flows too fast through the radiator to cool" theory. Seems if that were the case, it would flow through the engine too fast to get warm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 01:39 pm:

Guys,

Back on the farm in the 1950s and 60s we used Allis Chalmers Model G tractors. 9 hp engines that did not have water pumps and were cooled by thermo siphon. Guess what, these little engines used thermostats to control engine temp. By controlling water temperature, you get more efficiently and less wear so I'm running a thermostat in my T without a water pump. If it made sense for Allis Chalmers to run a thermostat, it makes sense to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 01:47 pm:

Did Allis Chalmers know something that Ford Motor Company did not?

I believe it comes down to this. In the Allis Chalmers case stated above and in comparisons to new cars, in each case they were originally designed to use a T'stat and so they work well with one. The Model T was designed for use without a thermostat and it too works well, as designed. If you want to use one and you feel it helps, that's certainly your choice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 01:48 pm:

When the Model T was designed in 1908, the internal combustion engine was relatively new; especially one that was used so often, for such long periods of time in an automobile, so it was not an exact science, but Henry got surprisingly close to creating the perfect thermo-siphon system the first time around. Even so, I think that the early brass T's had a problem of boiling over because the radiator was too small and thus, did not provide sufficient water for cooling the engine, but they still got by for the multitude of owners that drove them.

For the early cars with the smaller radiators, I would agree that a water pump and thermostat might make them more efficient and prevent overheating just as they do in the modern engines with the smaller radiators, but they will still run efficiently without them, just as they did back then.

The fact the Henry refused to install water pumps and thermostats on the Model T in the factory is an indication that he was determined to get the thermo-siphon system right and he did finally get it right attaining a perfect balance with the introduction of the taller radiator which provided more water into the system and sufficiently cooled the engine with frequent change outs of water from the radiator to the engine and back again. Coincidentally, this system worked perfectly for the later Model T as it struck a nice balance, as the water constantly circulated. I don't believe that the later Model T has any trouble reaching its' most efficient operating temperature without a water pump and a thermostat. That's the way it was in the heyday of the Model T and it's that way still.

I agree with Ralph that the dynamics between the Model T engine and modern engines are the same, up to a point. After all, they are both internal combustion engines operating on the same concept, but 80 years later, the modern engines have come much further than the primitive Model T engine, but even with the advanced technology, a modern engine would not run on the thermo-siphon system like a Model T engine does, so why subject the T to advanced technological developments meant to keep modern engines from overheating, if it does so well without it.

Think about it. You seem concerned that the Model T will not reach an efficient operating temperature without a thermostat and water pump, but if a modern engine will immediately overheat without them, what's to say that the addition of a water pump and thermostat are so efficient in cooling an engine that they will do what you are afraid of most. Cooling the engine so much that they prevent the Model T from attaining the most efficient operating temperature?

All I know is, without them, my '26 T purrs like a sewing machine even on the hottest Florida summer day. If it ain't broke... Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 03:23 pm:

I agree with Jim - no pump or thermostat. clean fluid and a good radiator are the ticket (plus water wetter)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Haynes on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 04:08 pm:

My first Model T had a water pump on it when I got it and I put up with the dripping packing and the fan belt running off occasionally because I thought that's what you do with an old car; you put up with nonsense like that. After all, just about everyone in our club arrived at the lunch stop with dirty fingers, announcing with a laugh, "MY FAN BELT CAME OFF!" or "I HAD TO TAKE UP LOW BAND!"

I still remember The Day I screwed up my resolve to chuck the pump. I spent the rest of the day driving with my big eye focused on the Motometer and my little eye scanning the road ahead. I waited in vain for the Vesuvius Apocalypse. Water pumps have subsequently become the very first casualty of every Model T Ford I have owned since and if the pump is of the "Berg's" variety I add the step of cutting it in half after it's off so it can never offend again.

Now, about 40 years, inestimable thousands of miles, under all conditions, in all weather, on lots of Model Ts of all body styles - all without water pumps - leaves me with the conclusion that a good running stock Ford simply doesn't need one. And if you think your car needs one, fix your car first.

You are now free to continue discussing the comparative benefits of ridiculous and unnecessary thermostats and in-line restrictors and the whole litany of useless but irresistible improvements that people seem to “need” on their cars.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 05:25 pm:

A lot of opinions but few measurements.. IR thermometers are so cheap nowadays, perhaps somebody with a themostat can measure temperatures at various spots on the engine after a warm up ride - then remove the thermostat and make the same ride & compare temperatures?

I suspect the std thermo barf system may result in rather uneven cylinder temperatures between #1 & #4 and a thermostat may even up the temperatures somewhat, resulting in less wear and less risk for spark plug fouling - but I'm no expurt & there has to be some measuring and comparing until this can be settled.

Yes, most T's will run even with uneven temperatures - but you may have to buy Champion X plugs and the cylinders will wear faster if running too cold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 05:55 pm:

[quote] By John Leming on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 03:23 pm:

I agree with Jim - no pump or thermostat. clean fluid and a good radiator are the ticket (plus water wetter)[/quote]

I can't believe you would put water wetter in a T, never mind anti freeze. Henry didn't do it, why would you? :-)

Guys, I'm just trying to make a point others have. Just because Henry didn't do it, doesn't mean it isn't a good think to do. I'm a not run a water pump guy because I am familiar with thermo siphon systems, and they work with a good radiator and clean systems. But better temperature control (thermostat), water wetter to improve heat transfer, and correct anti freeze for corrosion prevention are all good for the T, and Henry never did any of them. Just because Henry didn't do it is not a valid argument.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 09:55 pm:

John, I do alot of things Henry didnt do. I just said I agree with no pump or thermostat, and a good radiator and antifreeze supplimented with water wetter. Your argument on what Henry did or didnt do has nothing to do with me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 10:56 pm:

Sorry if I offended John. I just used your comment as an example of many posts I've seen on this forum of not doing things because Henry didn't design it that way. I believe in rational thinking and proof through experimentation. I'm tempted to buy an IR thermometer to do the test Roger Karlsson suggested. Empirical data is hard to argue.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 11:17 pm:

^ "Empirical data is hard to argue"

Not around here it isn't....... ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 11:48 pm:

I run an air conditioner, a 12v alternator, and an oil pump. None of them would be considered Henry Ford's favorites. I do not us a thermostat or a pump and my "T" does not overheat. I have a NOS water pump on the shelf that I'm thinking of installing....in the classifieds. I use an IR thermometer and the engine gets kinda hot but I don't know if it's at a good operating temp or not. BTW, that IR thermometer also is not one of Henry's favorites. (Neither is the 280 cam, the "A" crank, the "Z" head, the aux electric oil pump and the distributor, and how about the Warford and the Ruckstell and disc brakes?)...I know, get a "new Chevy". I used to run a pump but discarded it when I got a new flat tube radiator a bunch of years ago. Do whatever gives you the most fun!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Mikeska, Denver CO on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 01:12 am:

Darn, I have 4 running T's in the mile high city and they all run with 50/50 antifreeze in them without problems with cooling. I hate that I now need to install thermostats in them. In the last 35 years I have lived and driven my T's from 17 feet above sea level to 5280 feet above and have had no problems with cooling. I will add that a T knows when it is at high altitude but still seems to run as designed. I guess I should have had problems with spark plugs carboning up and water vapor clouds forming behind my cars from the overheating. But what do I know?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenny Edmondson, Indianapolis on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 06:42 am:

One reason for for water pumps and thermostats that everyone may be overlooking is for comfort heating in the passenger. T's had no heaters, so w/pumps and T/stats weren't needed. Same with John Deere tractors and others. I've never had a JD get "hot". The temp gauge would stay around 180 deg on the hottest days while bush hogging etc.

I've heard lots of people talking about their cars overheating in parades etc... My car with a Brass Works flat tube radiator, running anti freeze will run on the hottest days or could sit and idle a day long with out overheating or boiling the A/F. The round tube B/W radiator in another car seems to run a little warmer but still doesn't overheat.

I like to raise the hood on my car on a hot day after a run and have someone touch the outlet pipe from the radiator. They are amazed when they find it's around ambient temperature. Good cooling systems and timing adjustments will provide a engine that won't over heat. Over cooling is impossible as the coolant must heat up to begin circulation as others have described above.

Anyone not running a fan must be driving on open roads only with no stop and go traffic.

Radiators are designed to transfer heat from the coolant to the outside air. Loose fins, clogged tubes, or anything that slows heat transfer from the coolant, through the tubes to the fins to the outside air is going to cause overheating. Cooling systems must be able to give off (remove) more heat than what the engine (or what ever the device is) generates.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 08:57 am:

No fan; 180 thermo; Henry waterpump:

Less than 5 mph for more than five minutes is what it takes for the water in the 30 year old flat tube rad in front of the Fronty to get hot. Other than that, I never see any red at all in the Motometer.

If a Thermobarf engine heats the water to 180 in 80 degree air, it will heat the water to only 140 in 40 degree air. That's science, which a lot of you don't believe in.

Without a thermostat, the engine heats the water in the top of the rad to same temp as engine.

With a thermostat, the rad remains cool until the thermostat releases 180 degree water into it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 12:15 pm:

" That's science"

No, it's not Ralph.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Dysart - SoCal on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 01:06 pm:

Hi Ricks,

"If a Thermobarf engine heats the water to 180 in 80 degree air, it will heat the water to only 140 in 40 degree air."

Actually, I don't think that the scientific method supports your conclusion. You have asked a question, did preliminary research, and formed a hypothesis. The next step is to conduct an experiment or collect data to support that hypothesis. I do agree that you're thinking in the right direction, but I think that it's not as extreme as you suggest.

Without a water pump, the water in the engine won't circulate as much until the temp gets closer to 180, regardless of the ambient temperature. With a water pump, the cool water will be forced through the radiator, making it colder. So with a water pump, I might believe your numbers, therefore, I personally wouldn't run a water pump without a t-stat. But the Thermo-siphon system is self regulating, the extra heat makes it work better, lower engine temps make it work less.

That said, the engine will run somewhat cooler in cold weather than in hot weather, but the temperature differences are not reflected 1 for 1. I think that you can see this substantiated in Motometer readings on cars with un-molested thermo-siphon cooling systems, i.e. my car doesn't run 50 degrees hotter on a 90 degree day compared to a 40 degree day.

Of course, my round tube radiator is at least 50 years old (it could have been re-cored before it became part of our family), and I'm pretty sure that it is not as efficient as it was originally. To date, the only times that I get much overheating is when I'm trying to pull steep hills in high gear at full throttle for many consecutive minutes. Of course, I'm not sure that I've got the whole manual timing thing down yet, I'm guessing that I could do better.

But I'm in the camp that believes that a t-stat alone in a Thermo-siphon system won't make things better, and it has a better chance of making things worse.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 04:21 pm:

Hey John - no offense taken, not at all, I was just letting you know that I think you were maybe disagreeing with someone else, because Im kinda neutral on the purist non purist subject with T's and A's - what ever makes them run cool for me!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 04:35 pm:

OK, guys, please find a formula or chart of density/temperature of water. All I could find was what I posted previously, which may not be accurate.

rdr


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