DOOR PANELS, 1912,JUDGING GUIDELINES.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: DOOR PANELS, 1912,JUDGING GUIDELINES.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 01:01 pm:

I have three original 1912 Model T's . All OF the interior door panels are made of leather. I have been told this by two different upholsterers.

The new judging guidelines says, " door panels covered in black leatherette".

Going to upholstery June 1 on one of the Torpedos. Would like some advice on this. What should be correct?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 03:10 pm:

I used leather when I did my '12 Torpedo. Here are two photos of an original, unrestored, '12 that appeared at the Old Car Festival at The Henry Ford. There was interior panel remaining and the picture was taken looking down at the bracket that hold the front quarter panel, but you can see the leather that covered the panel. The other picture is the front seat, sewn of multiple small leather patches. Hope this helps you. JP


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 05:48 pm:

This is the interior of an unrestored 1912 touring. The door panels are not leather. The seat cushions are leather.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By roy palmer on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 05:48 pm:

I think the guidelines is wrong with regard to the door panels. I have always seen leather in the 12's and earlier.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 07:03 pm:



The first photos is of the 12 Torpedo I am now restoring. you can see the panels off and if you look at the panel next to the door panel which shows the inside , you can see that it is skin.

the next two photos is of my other 12 Torpedo. You can see I have pulled it open and can see the skin on the inside. Leatherette you can see a pattern of stitching, on leather you see the skin.

Now this holds true for my 12 Touring as well. Leather panels. Torpedo 1, Feb car and the other torpedo and touring are August cars.

So this is why I am confused as to what is correct. I have three original cars that all have leather panels yet the guidelines say leatherette....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 08:22 pm:

Another view of the "skin" view of the door panel. No question, this is leather


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Victoria Australia on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 09:04 pm:

I've tried every where l know to find a like material for leatherette, ......nothing ...
I even tried to make some, got close but not acceptable, looked shUReT, so abandoned the idea, if you know of someone who has it please let me know.

David


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By roy palmer on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 09:50 pm:

Yeah, tha'ts what i have always seen, leather on the door panels....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 10:24 pm:

Here is the pictures I forgot to attach above. (Just got out of the hospital and I am still under the influence of surgery drugs, sorry)torpedotorpedo seat


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 11:23 pm:

Greg-

Here are some pictures of a Fisher bodied 1912 touring. I don't know if the door upholstery is original or not, but it certainly looks very old. The seat upholstery is "original" that has been modified as the car is a sleeper. The door panels look to be Leatherette, but have not seen this pattern before.

The car is s/n 87xxx, probably one of those cars with early numbered engines shipped out in mid-March.







Here is the original foredoor upholstery from my late "dip-door" 1911:




On each of these the top section and the "kick panel" are leather, but the lower door portion is leatherette.

If they were doing partial leatherette in late 1911, they undoubtedly used "some" in 1912. There may have been some variation of the materials and style used depending upon what company did the upholstery and "finish" work on the body.

The backrests are the top and front of the cushions in 1912 were leather. The side, and back of the cushion, as well as the bottom of the springs (lined with cardboard) were covered in leatherette.

: ^ )

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 11:47 pm:

Greg,

Sounds almost like anything goes...yet the guidelines apparently say leatherette.

Although I have not researched fully the early earlies, I would not find it all that strange that different body builders actually did things different ways...after all, they had a fixed price contract and if they could come up with 'hide' as a replacement for 'coated cloth' in a specification, I doubt anyone at Ford would have complained!

Best bet? You are attempting an apparently serious resto so contact Russ Furstnow, Chief Judge MTFCI (you can search by 'author' in the search function here and then click on the link that comes up) and ask him what is 'acceptable' for your restoration...saves the grief of following consensus and 'exceptions'debates later. Then put his reply in your folder with the car in case you get questioned later on 'choice'.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Monday, May 21, 2012 - 11:54 pm:

Keith, the fisher body looks like an old restore of the panels but who knows..

Frustrating and confusing to say the least.

Thanks George, Royce,Roy and Jack

Dave, I hear you. What would you buy for leatherette? would the top material,colonial grain, work? I don't know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russ Furstnow on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 09:00 am:

When I restored my 1912 wide track touring, I was interested in the side panels also. The panels were made of a thin cardboard covered with leatherette. It appeared that the leatherette had a clear coating, but that may have been added at a later date. A horizontal bead was stitched into the leatherette door panels as seen in the photo provided by Royce Peterson. The panel covering was not leather, although leather looks much better and is more durable.

I hope this helps,
Russ Furstnow


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 09:39 am:

Thanks Russ.

But if that's true then somehow I have three original 1912 Model T Fords that all have leather door panels. So if i understand you correctly, then at some point, even though they all definitely appear original and were never restored, that all the door panels on all three of my cars were replaced with leather at some point very early on, which is incorrect.

So clearly you and Royce are saying that the panels were leatherette and never leather?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 09:59 am:

Greg,

I have seen many cars that had repairs done many years ago, although most were done in some sort of gaudy vinyl. The pictures you show are very small and so I can't tell for sure, but the detail work does not appear to be as original. It would be my guess looking at those small images that perhaps the car's cardboard door panels have been refurbished in the past using leather, which was and is still easier to find than leatherette. The cardboard panels do not typically survive well,

Remember people were "restoring" brass Model T's in the late 1930's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 10:06 am:

Royce,

Any idea where I might find the correct looking leatherette to purchase? I am assuming it would not be the same material as the side curtains or top..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 11:00 am:

Greg: As said before I used leather. It is easy to work with and it matches the seat upholestry. The examples I looked at were leather and I am sure that there were also leatherette used by some suppliers. That said it is your vehicle do what you believe to be the most correct.torpedo upholsterytorpedo upholsterytorpedo upholstery I did this upholstery from scratch and it was the first leather upholstery that I attempted


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 11:03 am:

Thanks Jack. Amazing you did that on your first attempt..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 11:07 am:

'12 Torpedo with what appears to be cracked old leather on the side panels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By roy palmer on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 11:13 am:

Don't want to add more to the confusion but.....

On page 131 of Bruce Mcalley's book within the 1912 chapter,there is a photo of a rear door of a 1912 Touring. Here is a quote from the caption.

" The doors were upholstered in leather with an imitation -leather strip tacked in place."

So here, Bruce is saying two things. He is stating the doors are upholstered in leather. And by acknowledging the tack strip, he is making a distinction between the real leather on the door panels and the leatherette used for the tack strip.

Russ and Royce,

Really could use some clarity on this. thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 11:18 am:

Dan,

That's what i have on both of my 12 Torpedos and my 12 Touring. When the panels were taken off , its obvious that they are leather because you can see the "skin" on the back. thanks for photos.

Roy,

You are correct now i am more confused. Bruce says the panels are leather..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 11:36 am:



The only other non leather I see other than the top and side curtains and boot on my cars is this covering under the seats which is different from all the rest of the non leather.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Russ Furstnow on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 11:57 am:

First of all, I want to clarify that I was not at the Ford assembly plant in 1912, so I cannot say that door panels were "NEVER" covered in leather. I can say that my "Wilson" body 1912 touring had varnished leatherette covered door panels. I also talked with Steve Hubert and he stated that 1912 "Beaudette" bodies he has worked on had leather covered door panels, so the manufacturer of the body may have used different materials for its door panels.

As I stated earlier, I would install the covering that you like and are happy with.

Russ Furstnow


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 12:17 pm:

thanks Russ.


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