ANOTHER TIMER QUESTION

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: ANOTHER TIMER QUESTION
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Claverie on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 10:37 pm:

I'm about to install my spare, which is an Anderson, in place of the roller timer that was on the engine when I bought it.

I have a question:

I understand the timer rod needs to be bent in order to properly 'time' the Anderson. Even in the thread below, this necessity is mentioned. But I just don't understand why this couldn't have been avoided?

This is critical, of course, in order to preserve my Bendix spring, and I understand that, but:

Why didn't they simply put the alignment hole or slot in the rotor in the correct place so that the rod was the same as for all the myriad of other timers available for a Model T?

Anybody know?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 10:48 pm:

Because of the geometery of the various mechanical contact means of the hundereds of timers made to fit the Ford and Fordson.

Timing is important to have it 15 degrees past TDC on #1 cylinder.

Horizontial crank pin pulley places the Ford at TDC.

15 degrees past



Some of the many kinds of timers


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Tuesday, May 22, 2012 - 11:01 pm:

From what I've read form folks that should know the different timers are all pretty close to the same timing/rod length setting.

One reason that the Anderson may be different is that the recommended timing was just after TDC rather then the Ford 15 degrees ATDC. There is no reason you can't set an Anderson timer at 15 degrees ATDC. It may be a littler harder to start but safer because it is further away from TDC and the dreaded BTDC/kickback. In any event, when you change a timer it just makes sense to check the timing, no matter what timer you use.

Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 04:28 pm:

The timing should be set whenever a different timer is installed. Due to several factors, it is not possible to make a timer which will fit correctly to ever model T. The wear on the linkage, the location of the steering column in relationship to the timer etc. is different on each car. Even the sag in the body parts and in the chassis and engine mounts will affect the timing setting. You might get lucky and not need to bend the rod, but you should check it by pushing the timing lever all the way up and rotate the engine very slowly on batt to see that the spark comes after top dead center of the compression stroke. Then bend the rod if necessary to get it right. Always check again after pulling the rod down and then back up again. That way you will set at at the position you normally use to start the car. By pulling down first and then up, you will compensate for all the slack in the system.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 06:38 pm:

Peter is asking why the Anderson's timing is different than a Ford roller timer. I don't know for sure but I suspect it is because the timer wire studs are placed identically to a Ford roller timer. The contacts in the anco timer thus contact the flapper earlier, and result in very advanced timing / kickback if you install it without checking.

Conversely, if you install a Ford roller timer in place of an anco timer the spark timing is way retarded. This makes for very poor performance.

Bottom line any time you install any timer check the timing. It takes a few minutes but is worth it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 06:39 pm:

The 15 degree after TDC setting is NOT something unique to the Anderson but is where the timing will end up with Ford's recommended gauge. In truth I have never found much difference between any of the timers I have used but I always check them just to make sure. Somebody erroneously stated that the Anderson was way different than the Ford roller timer and now everybody thinks they are all different. As Peter correctly points out "why would an aftermarket timer maker make his timer different" since it would not be a very good selling point to have to retime the motor to use some new market entry timer. I used to run a New Day timer on my '23 driver and when I made the mistake of replacing my timer with a brand new one it turned out to be a bum New Day timer repro that was lousy. I had left the original timer at home and I was on tour. When it failed I swapped it for an Anderson timer and did not retime the motor since it just started right up. I later checked it and it was right on the money so there was no noticeable difference between original New Day timer and the Anderson. Not really a surprise there since again - why would a vendor make his different and thus require a different timing. Maybe someone could carefully note the difference by installing each of them on his own car one at a time without changing the timing rod and see where they end up. I doubt there will be a huge difference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 08:48 pm:

When I first got my truck, it had a New Day. I couldn't wait to get under the hood of my new toy and check everything out and tune it for optimal performance. I had the T shop manual and proceeded to adjust the timing by the book (ie measuring from the bolt head to the timer rod. It was not at the prescribed distance so I adjusted it. I don't recall which way it was off but when I tried to run it, it was obvious something was wrong, so I had to figure out how to put it back like it was supposed to be. After asking on this forum, I was told that the measurement method only applied to original roller timers. I don't know what all other ones it applied to, but not the New Day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 10:07 pm:

The bolt head measure or that 'gauge' sold to time a Ford is only approximate.

Note the info from Murray Fahnestock in 1920.



At one time the measure was 2 5/8". Then 2 1/2".

This setting was determined with the Ford timer and using the battery start instead of magneto prior to 1920.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 12:00 am:

There are more than a few things wrong here. That is the WRONG place to bend the rod. You can bend the rod almost anyplace that makes it shorter if you want to advance the timing but you can create clearance problems with things like radiator hoses and tubes if you bend the rod in the wrong place. If you start with a correctly bent new timer rod made to factory drawings, it will clear everything just fine. If you bend the rod only in the arc above the timer and near the timer end you will find a rather slight amount of bending will produce a maximum amount of rod length change. That is the proper place to bend the rod and all the other clearances will not be altered. Simply widen the arc if you want to retard the timing and reduce the arc (squeeze it a bit more closed) to advance the timing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Harper - Keene, NH on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 08:25 am:

Thank you, John. I have often wondered if there was a best or preferred area in which to bend the timer rod. Now we know.


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