The procedure I learned is to turn the hand crank slowly with the gas off, ignition on, and the lever fully retarded, and as long as the coil would buzz JUST AFTER the crank handle had gone past 0°, 90°, 180° or 270° it was OK. If a coil buzzed PRIOR TO one of the quarter turns, adjust the timing rod to make it buzz just after.
I've been following this procedure for roller and Anderson timers with apparently good results and no kickbacks.
I don't recall seeing this method discussed on the forum — is there a better/safer way I should know about? Thanks.
Chris, that should be safe...is generally the way I do it...only difference is I do number one only, pull through to just immediately after TDC with plug out and ign. off, tape the lever full up, ign. on and rotate the timer clockwise until the coil buzzes (open plug laying on block) and then just back off the timer a 'tad' and I do mean 'tad'.
Think at end of the day your way is the same way! I do this on all timers of any make, after TDC but close to? never a chance for a kickback as long as the stick is up.
Some crank ratchets are worn more than others. I use a similar technique, but I look at the pin that holds the pulley on rather than just the crank handle itself. Once you figure in the wear in the pin hole of the crank, the pin, the hole in the ratchet, and the little pockets on the ratchet that engage the pulley pin, it can all add up. I pull it through until it JUST starts buzzing and then look at the pulley pin to ensure it's a hair past horizontal. Not a bad idea to check all four cylinders to ensure there's not some wear or eccentricity to the timer that will cause one cylinder to fire before or after another.
I use a plastic drinking straw inserted in #1 cylinder to tell when the piston just starts down. With a bit of practice you can pull the crank and hold the straw.
Im going to have the head off tomorrow,ill use a piston stop and dial indcator to find top TDC and mark the crank. will it be ok to buzz the coil on #1 and back off a tad on the timer 1-2 degrees with the dial indecator BTDC?
I never could understand why people poke things down the cylinder. Why not just look in the spark plug hole and watch the top of the piston come up.
I never could understand why people poke things down the cylinder. Why not just look in the spark plug hole and watch the top of the piston come up.
Fred
In my opinion 1-2 degrees is too close to TDC and frankly dangerous.
Ford originally set the initial timing on the Model T at 15 degrees ATDC. That would be the piston .091 past TDC.
I believe that was done for safety reasons and explains why early Model T starting instructions asked the operator to advance the spark lever 3-4 notches when starting on magneto.
Here is a link to an article we wrote several years ago with a simple explanation how the Model T ignition system was designed and worked
Model T Ignition System and Spark timing
Ron the Coilman
You can also use the crank pin method. It works best on the earlier cars where the crank pin is easily visible. The crank pin is exactly horizontal (hour hand at 9 and 3 o"clock on the clock face) when any cylinder is at TDC. Each 15 minutes on the hour hand is 7.5 degrees. Hence 15 degrees ATDC would have the hour hand at 9:30 and 3:30 on the clock face.
Ron the Coilman
It is most important to get the retarded spark after top dead center. After the engine is running, the spark can be adjusted by moving the lever to find the "sweet spot". Due to slop in the linkage, always set it by pushing up on the lever and checking that the spark comes after top dead center. That is very important. If you set the timer to put the spark after top dead center and then bend the rod to fit, it is possible that when you push the lever all the way up, it might still be advanced a few degrees, so after your initial setting, check again by pulling the lever down and then push up. That will be the position it will be in when you try to start the car. I hope I made this clear and did not confuse anyone.
Norm
Ron,
I fully understand your statement that setting timing a 1 or 2 degrees ATDC is too dangerous. On the other side of the coin is the added chance for operator error by adding the 3-4 notches of advance to start on mag with the 15 degree ATDC. It would be very easy for an operator to confuse the procedure for mag and battery starting and end up with a dangerous kick back when starting on battery at 3-4 notches of advance. When the timing is set very near TCD the chance for operator error is reduced because the starting procedure is the same for bat and mag, set the spark lever at the fully retarded position and start.
Choose your poison, mechanical error or operator error.
Jim
Thanks, everyone, for your comments.
Thanks, everyone, for your comments.
Oops.
Fred,
I can't see the piston going over center as easily as I can feel it. If your way works for you that;s great, I find my way works fine and that's why I keep doing it.
Just finished reading the artical Ron,This will be a big help. Truck has been sitting sense 1952.My gold is to get her running this weekend.She pops and puffs and I wanted to check the timmer.This is my first try starting a T.
Ive been messing with A's for years. I will let yall know next week what happens. Thanks Wick
With the timing lever all the way up, I set it so the coil starts buzzing just as the piston leaves TDC. A screwdriver down the spark plug hole works, but now I have the timing gauge from Snyders. Works out to a couple of degrees ATDC. With 6V operation I need the full range of timing. Never had a backfire after 10yrs of cranking, and anyway I hold the crank correctly when starting.
Hi Ron,
I've read that article before, but every time I read it, it makes a little more sense (I guess that it takes a bit for some stuff to sink in). As I read it, it looks like the full range of the advance lever only results in 5 possible ignition settings when running on magneto and they come in 22.5 deg steps. Is that right?
I've only been messing about with my T for a few months, and I think that I'm just starting to get the hang of the whole timing thing. I have recently been able to climb a hill on the way to my house in high, I used to have to use low pedal to climb it. I haven't ever been able to crank start on mag, not that I've tried very often, but I didn't know about the 3-4 notches thing. I guess I've got something new to try the next time the car is warmed up.
Eric
Your should have seen the first draft!
Depending upon the car probably only three; 4 degrees ATDC, 18.5 degrees BTDC and 41 degrees BTDC. Most driving is done with the middle position.
There are some other very complex electrical things going on in the system during operation which we left that out of the article, frankly so we did not have to explain them and lose the whole crowd of readers for our simplified explanation. Grin
Basically view the spark lever as a notch detector and then fine tune it for best performance based on current driving condition.
I call it your calibrated seat of pants.
The best example I can give is drive on a long flat stretch and adjust for maximum power and then ascend a grade. The engine will start to slow and if you retard the spark you will feel a noticeable increase in power as the necessary spark retard is best utilized by the engine under load.
Have fun
Ron the Coilman
If the correct starting method is used, how can it be dangerous if the spark is not retarded? A kick back is not a big thing, and I think that if one has never experienced one, they could get complacent and then the kick back would be dangerous.
Best
Gus