Babbitt vs. bearings

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Babbitt vs. bearings
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 02:40 pm:

Has anyone ever endeavoured to put modern style bearings in the bottom end of these blocks instead of babbitt? One would think after all these years someone would have found a '67 vauxhall or something with the same size journals etc. anyone have any ideas, rumors, stories? I found out my block is hooped and I'm just "babbitching" about having to find some one who does this relatively obscure job and the cost involved.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug - Braidwood (glow in the dark), IL on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 03:21 pm:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/286156.html?1336042300


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 04:00 pm:

Rik,

The link above will probably end with the conclusion that insert bearings require pressurized oil. Not all new technologies are adaptable to a Model T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 04:39 pm:

I think it has been discussed, but I don't think anyone has ever come up with a slip in bearing to replace the babbited bearings.

When I first bought my T, 42 years ago in 1970, I knew nothing about working on them. I learned as I went and improvised where I could. One thing I improvised on was refitting the crankshaft to the original babbited bearing.

As a 16 year old kid with very little money and no way afford to get the babbits re-poured, even if I could have found anyone, I was in a pickle. When I removed the crankshaft, the surface of the babbited caps and babbited block had turned to a grey powder which I could scrape away with my fingernail. I read my Model T Service manual over and over again longing for the tools that would allow me to pour them myself, but they were nowhere to be found. Finally, with no other choice, I decided on a plan and prayed that it would work, otherwise, my Model T project would have come to a screeching halt, perhaps, forever.

My plan: After I numbered each cap, 1 to 4 from the front to the back and label the edge pointing to the front, I carefully and uniformly scraped each babbited bearing cap and block bearing with a wide flat utility knife blade until I reached solid shiny babbit. I then saved up my money till I had enough to order a set of main bearing shims from Snyder's. When they arrived, I installed the crankshaft and luckily each bearing was tight which allowed me to shim each bearing, which I did one at a time putting an equal amount of shims on each side until the bearing was loose then I removed one of the shims which made the bearing slightly snug. I would then carefully remove the completed cap and shims and set them aside then do the next one, one bearing at a time so that no bearing could interfere with the setting of the next. After they were all done, I put some lapping compound on each crankshaft main bearing surface and installed the bearings, tightening them down with the shims in place. I then mounted the block to the pan with a few bolts, installed the crankshaft pulley and crank so that I could run the crankshaft in and seat the resurfaced bearings. I cranked and cranked the crank, occassionally putting a few drops of oil in each main bearing oil hole through the piston cylinder until the crankshaft turned relatively easily. I then removed the block from the pan and set the block upside down on my work bench then removed the bearing caps and shims and carefully cleaned all the lapping compound out of the bearings and off the crankshaft.

It may not have been the best way to do it, but for a broke 16 year old who had no other way, it served its' purpose and that engine ran that way for the next 35 years until 2005 when I shipped the block up to Connecticutt and had George King III pour them the proper way.

They say that "necessity is the mother of invention", but so too is poverty and desperation. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 04:49 pm:

Here are some 'die cast' bearings, like form of early inserts from the '20's.




Perhaps easy way to change out the babbitt :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry Ostbye on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 05:18 pm:

Jim P. What an awsome story ! And you proved that it will work as long as you have good babbit to work with.

I have heard from varrios people that modern bearings do not hold up unless it is a presure system. Some think and it might be a good theory that there is not enough heat transfer with a bearing insert.

Anyone ??

J


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 06:23 pm:

When they first started building engines it was like when they first started building complete cars. Cadillac won the Dewar French trophy for driving three cars into a room. The Cadillac folks left the room and then some other folks took the parts and scattered them around into a big pile. Some different folk came back into the room and assembled the three car and drove them out of the room. That was unheard of and you can't do that with babbit unless all are made to the same size.

When I took my number22 engine apart for re-doing all of the journals were of different diameters.

If you wan't to re-make the world then by all means fabricate insert bearings in your lower end. The only money you save is when you go to replace a part and can go to the store and replace by giving a part number.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 06:23 pm:

Jim

I love stories about people "who find a way"

My favorite expression is from the WWII era:

"use it up, wear it out !"

Cheers
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 07:35 pm:

Rik,

A bit different but same concept. A buddy of mine did inserts for his main bearings on a T motor with an A crank. He has full pressure oil with filter etc. The bearing came from some small British motor rods. 2 sets on #1 main, 2 1/2 for #2 and 3 sets on the rear main.

It works fine but he wouldn't do it again. Much too expensive and minimal benefit.

Walt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cecil Paoletti -- Rrnton WA on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 09:02 pm:

I wonder how the bearing cap was aligned to the mating side. With an insert bearing there isn't enough babbitt material to fit 'em up tight and run 'em in. In conventional design the bearing cap is sized for a wringing fit in the engine block or connecting rod. I suppose you could use a precision shear bolt to align the cap. Some current auto manufacturer's design fractures the connecting rod cap from the rest of the rod: then uses the fracture surface to align the cap. This was first used on roller bearing two stroke engines I think but I'm unsure of the origin of the design. I first encountered this alignment issue on an ill fated diesel engine design project. It would be interesting to know how the alignment issue was solved. Didn't all of the car manufacturers use poured mains until the late '30's? I recall my future father in law towing his C#@%^&t down the dirt road after tightening the bearings while the hired hand jumped up and down on the rear bumper to get enough traction to turn the engine over.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Michael Rogers on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 09:27 pm:

I'm going to put a set of insert rods in my T and run the hell out of it and see how long they last just to either dispel these rumors about pressure and inserts or confirm them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 09:45 pm:

I guess I don't understand why you need inserts. Never say never, but if I were to build a T engine, I wouldn't figure I would ever have to do it again. The benefit doesn't come in until you do it the second time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marc Johnson Helotes TX on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 09:48 pm:

I'm going to do one engine with an A crank and the insert bearings for them. Will have to modify the bearings to clear the bolts, etc., using the steel caps and bolts from Dan McEachern. Will be full pressure though and a Overhead Cam Head. If it works ok I might do one without pressure and a regular head to see what happens. If it doesn't work I'll fire up the babbitt pot. Tune in next year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 10:16 pm:

The usual price to have the block line bored to fit inserts is $500 plus the bearings.

Now think about all the model A's and Ford V8 engines before '36 that ran a looooong time without ever having the mains rebabbitted.
Is it really worth it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 10:39 pm:

Modern insert bearings are babbitt too.....just less of it in a steel shell.
Steel is a better conductor than babbitt so the heat transfer thing is moot.
There is enough babbitt on insert bearings that when IT'S gone the engine needs an overhaul anyway.
The disadvantage is you can't simply remove shims 25 times before you're completely screwed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 11:27 pm:

Craig, they sell a tapered shim that goes under the bearing shell. You put one in and it takes up the slop. My dad put some in his 1936 Chrysler during WWII. He also put little piston expander clamps inside of the piston skirts to take the slap out of them. No new parts on the shelves so just fix the old crap. He tried shot peening and it did't work so he put in the expanders.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 11:39 pm:

I don't doubt that Frank but the new inserts have such a thin babbitt lining I don't think they'd make it........ :-(
Old Allis Chalmers tractor engines, WD's for example, had some very thin shims to take up some wear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Wednesday, May 23, 2012 - 11:43 pm:

Steel is a better conductor than babbitt so the heat transfer thing is moot.

Craig, I don't think that is true, Babbitt Tinned to a rod, has supper good heat transfer qualities. The thicker babbitt will take more abuse where there is no filter. The inserts on the other hand, will not take the same abuse from dirt. The most important factor on heat transfer with inserts, is the oil that gets between the insert, and the rod bearing, and disrupts cooling, as oil is a bad heat conductor, unless you cool with oil pressure.

The one thing that nobody thinks a head on, and this is true for all engines, no matter what you use for inserts, made for a ModelT, or say Model A. How long are any given insert going to be made. Inserts are Obsoleted every day, in cars, tractors, Ect. Some time they just drop certain sizes.

How many times has any one bought something made for a Model T, and next year, they were no longer to be had. I bought a set of Hydraulic brakes for a 1914, they had bonded linning, and there own cast drums, the next year they went out of business, where would you go for parts, I had not put them on yet, and a guy found out I had them, he was friends with the maker, and give me my money back, as far as the brakes, I thought they were very good Quality.

Here today, and gone tomorrow!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 12:07 am:

Craig, they sell a tapered shim that goes under the bearing shell. You put one in and it takes up the slop. My dad put some in his 1936 Chrysler during WWII

Frank, I have seen a few of them, but they do more harm then good. They are wider in the middle, and taper to about an inch about a 1/3rd of the way to the part line. That was a try to keep going type of thing when people had no money to spend.

The problem with them, they did not cover the whole bearing, and the rest of the insert hangs out away from its shell, and the ones we have taken out, the shells were wore be on rebuild, with the shim pattern wore in to the shell, and the wear pattern was also wore in to the block, and we had to align bore bigger, and make over size shells for what ever it took to clean the block shells up.

It is always best, no matter what kind of bearings you are using, to have a 100 percent backing.

Thanks Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 12:48 am:

A friend at work had inserts put in his 30 model A ford. They did not last! He spent $$$'s on the machine work in order to run inserts and it was a loser. He ended up replacing the block and rods in order to return to pored babbitt bearings.
He was told by a shop doing babbitt work that once you machine a block to accept inserts......there is no turning back unless you like very thick babbitt.
Model A's have an oil pump and a better oiling system compared to a model T. If you run a pressure oiling system then inserts may work just fine. I have a T engine that has a drilled A crank and oil pump/filter which is using babbitt bearings. The babbitt bearings seem to hold up with this combination......however, the engine has been used for normal driving. I have no experience using babbitt bearing in raceing applications.
I would follow Herm's advice....he speaks from practical knowledge having rebuilt many antique engines. Too many folks on this forum are fast to tell others what they think or may have been told but lack the practical knowledge of really knowing what they are talking about. I am impressed by those who have actually walked the walk when providing guidance to others.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 12:51 am:

A friend at work had inserts put in his 30 model A ford. They did not last! He spent $$$'s on the machine work in order to run inserts and it was a loser. He ended up replacing the block and rods in order to return to pored babbitt bearings.
He was told by a shop doing babbitt work that once you machine a block to accept inserts......there is no turning back unless you like very thick babbitt.
Model A's have an oil pump and a better oiling system compared to a model T. If you run a pressure oiling system then inserts may work just fine. I have a T engine that has a drilled A crank and oil pump/filter which is using babbitt bearings. The babbitt bearings seem to hold up with this combination......however, the engine has been used for normal driving. I have no experience using babbitt bearing in raceing applications.
I would follow Herm's advice....he speaks from practical knowledge having rebuilt many antique engines. Too many folks on this forum are fast to tell others what they think or may have been told but lack the practical knowledge of really knowing what they are talking about. I am impressed by those who have actually walked the walk when providing guidance to others.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 01:36 pm:

Jim Patrick, I'm so glad you posted your bearing repair trick.

Many years ago my uncle showed me the same technique. He could take the taper and out-of- roundness of a crank shaft back into spec.

He helped me save a 1918 block, back in the 1960's, in this manner. The same engine is still in a running car, and has not been repoured since.

I remember him filing the caps and using shims to get the clearances just right, then applying the grinding compound. Slowly we rotated the crank shaft till the ovality was gone. To remove the taper he made special shims to lift one end of the cap, rotating the crankshaft in the same manner, till the taper was gone. He removed the crank and lightly scraped the grinding compound off the bearing surfaces, washed every thing with kerosine and oil, then fitted the bearings with new shims. He explained how the grinding compound would slightly embed into the bearing material and act as a non sacrificial grinder, that is the babbit was spared while the crank pins would become reduced.

His philosophy was if the bearing material was still there, use it! I'm sure this was a trick learned during the depression but it worked!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Thursday, May 24, 2012 - 02:04 pm:

Thank you John. It's nice to know I'm in good company with your uncle, but I just lucked into the process using common sense and was lucky enough not to have to repeat the process several times, for, when I inspected the bearing surfaces, the lapping compound was pretty uniformly distributed, meaning, the bearing surfaces conformed to the crankshaft all the way across. Had there been variations in the thickness or thinness of the lapping compound, it would have been an indication that there were one or more high points and I would have had to shave off the high point(s) remove one or more shims and do that bearing over. I guess I had beginner's luck. Thanks again. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 03:02 am:

Thanks alot guys I suppose it was a bit simplistic to suggest that something would just bolt in but after 100 years of tinkering i'm positive someone has done it somewhere sometime. The point is well taken though that if it were easy and parts readily available it would be common knowledge and practice. The gist of the advice seems to be find another block hone it and try the shims with the mismatched block/crank put it back together and just see what happens. Thanks Jim your story of ingenuity has inspired me to go for it!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Conger on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 06:33 am:

John Semprez's dad was a pretty clever guy to create round journals with babbitt bearings.

This brings a point that I think is not mentioned in the above postings but bears mentioning lest someone ends up wrecking their project: there are two kinds of lapping compound - embedding and non-embedding.

John's dad used embedding compound which embedded in the softer material (babbitt). The contour of the lap then imparted it's shape to the crank. Once embedded, the compound can be allowed to do the work with only the addition of oil, occasionally as the work progresses. Examples of embedding compound would be diamond or aluminum oxide

What is more typical in our hobby is to use a non-embedding compound (important!!) which will wear away the babbitt and create a perfectly round bearing. This is typically a slurry lap, where the compound is periodically applied and will break down into finer and finer grains, creating a finer finish toward the end than the beginning. An example of non-embedding compound would be garnet.

the enclosed link will provide you with plenty of information regarding the two different kinds of lapping and how to chose your compound to accomplish your goal. I have no financial interest in the company link below...I just believe it is a good place to start if you want more information regarding lapping theory. I've spent my working life in industry where we create super finishes and surfaces round, flat or spherical to 1u" (one millionth of an inch), and have spent much time developing laps and lap techniques for special projects.

http://www.us-products.com/sitehtml/lapping.html
http://www.newmantools.com/lapping/time.htm

The products available to us in the hobby now (Timesaver, for instance) is an enormous leap forward compared to what was available when our cars were new.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 07:09 am:

Scott, back then I didn't know the difference, but I used the same lapping compound (that comes in a little green can) I used on my valves, which I assume was the non-embedding kind. I don't know if it was correct, but I do know it worked. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 01:45 am:

Bud Holzschuh - I just happened to see your May 23rd post where you mention that your favorite expression is from the WWII era:

"use it up, wear it out!"

As long as you called it your favorite expression, I'm gonna' do you a favor and tell you (unless you already know it) the entire WWII expression:

"Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without!"

Not trying to be a "wise guy" or something, but it might be that I'm just older than you and happen to recall from my "depression era" parents, the entire expression,....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 08:32 am:

That's good Harold. Not so long ago, when we were younger and money was hard to come by, that's exactly what we had to do and we did. It's because of times like that, that many us are now as resourceful as we are. Something that cannot be learned in today's throw away society. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Randall Strickland on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 04:11 pm:

I haven't tried inserts in a T but, I know without a doubt they will run in a Mdl A, using Farmall Cub main brg's yes there is a lot of work installing them,but they will perform!I have driven two times from Va to Ca without a car hauler following me,have put more than 50,000mi on my mdl sincs 2006 and never a bearing problem with standard Mdl A oiling,here's some photo's to prove it.http://www.photoshow.com/watch/NM3PT3Sf


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rik Van on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 07:39 pm:

Thanks Randall neat video of the top of pikes peak! Lots of pics of your wife but none of your engine lol if you have any more info on the build please send me a pm - Rik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 09:29 pm:

Time saver has been around since about 1919 I think. We used bon ami cleaner on friction bearing journals in railcars because of the same properties as timesaver. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 01:16 pm:

Harold

I had never heard the rest of that expression. I think many people must have shortened it or forgot the rest!

Thanks for taking the time to fill me in!

Cheers
schuh


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