Hey all, new member here. I'm planning on taking a look at a Model T on a farm this weekend and was wondering how bad is too bad to reasonably bring back to life? I've spoken to the seller once so far and it seems he really doesn't know what he has (may not even be a T) so without looking for myself I just don't know what's there.
What I was able to find out so far is that it's outside, the spokes have all rotted out of the wheels, all of the various levers and pedals have seized inside the last ten years and although there's a rad and hood the body is missing (he thinks he may know where it is in the bush).
I'm not particularly hopeful about this thing but the adventure of going out to see it appeals to me and hey, you never know. Having said all that, is there anything that would indicate a restoration is doable? What should I look for and what would be a deal breaker?
All I'm after in the end is a speedster and I'd appreciate any advice you folks have to offer.
-Tim
In My opinion if you are building a speedster all you care about is frame, engine ,trans,rear front ends, And a cowl. You will no doubt build all the rest ??
Take a look on the forum pictures of what others have built and are building. As far as stuff being stuck,,usually you can restore it.
These guys on here have done some really nice stuff.
I am on my first T and once you have one.. It seems it aint enough.
Almost anything can be restored if you have enough time, skill, and money (or substitute more money for time and /or skill). I guess the limits are all personal but if the controls and motor are frozen, it is highly unlikely to be worth the effort unless you enjoy challenges.
Thanks for the fast reply Jerry. A quick look on the forum shows there are some real artists here.
-Tim
Walt, what kind of 'challenges' would I be looking at in trying to un-seize it? Are we talking about time and patience or just throwing buckets of money at it?
-Tim
Unless it's free, you'd probably be better off finding something else. Like was said above, if you have enough money and time and just WANT to, sure you can make it run, but I wouldn't bother. I bought something similar a couple of years ago for $200 and wonder now if should have spent it.
From the description you wrote I'm going to venture BOTH.......
Take pictures from several angles, including close shots of major components, and post them here. You'll soon have plenty of expert opinions on what, whether, and how much.
Once I started on this,it ran sitting on blocks after a little effort.
Anything can be fixed.Some folkes dont like a challenge.To me that is the fun part.The challenge.Anybody can get a car out of a museum and put a battery and fresh gas in it.
This is what I started with for my first "T" project. Tinkering and learning is part of the fun of the hobby.
This was in 1979 in Alaska and I didn't have the forum or any one to ask questions then.
Bob
Pictures will tell the tale. The price has to be right if it endured many winters in the field.
I can remember a 38 Ford Coupe in high school that was out in the pasture along highway 77 in this area that 'was' a good car and after almost 30 years literally rotted and rusted down. The guy wouldnt sell it. It was sure a shame.
John, looks like we're neighbors. I'm just two miles from US 77.
Here are some shots of what we started with and ended up with on a speedster project.
Below is a pile of parts we started with:
Below is what we ended up with:
It all depends on how much time and effort you want to put into a project.
Very impressive guys,well done Mack, Bob and Mike!
Here's my take: assume you enjoy doing the work. You work for free and while you may curse the day you were born while doing it, the experience of enjoying the finished product made it all worth it.
But you need to tally up the purchase price and all the expenses that will occur to turn almost nothing into something. And if you could not sell the finished product for the the sum of its parts, meaning if you would not only have worked for free but lose money while having worked for free, it's a no-go.
The deal killer is money. A lot of people think that a rusty pile of junk is worth almost as much as a nice running car. "Hey! Go find another one if you don't wanna give $5000 for it?" I have heard it too many times.
I have started with a few rusty remains and ended up with a decent or nice running car eight times now. And am working on two more. (Then again, some people are just nuts.)
True value of a chassis? depends upon year, location, and a dozen different condition factors. Somewhere between $200 and $4000. Think much closer to $200. It has to be something special to go over $1000. And in decent condition to go over $600. Unless it is in New Zealand. Then Kep would want to buy it.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
If it is seized i found oil and heat will almost always free it up. If you have no body consider that creative license. If you cannot make spokes or the wheels are just not up to your standards this is also creative license for other wheels, After all you said you were hoping for a speedster and they do not always use original parts. For a speedster all you really need is some axles and other chassis parts.
If you can post pictures please do so.
Thanks guys, I'm glad to hear my uneducated guesses were reasonably close to the mark. I figured a T should be industrial enough to survive decades outside and even then I was thinking $200 was around what I would offer.
I talked again with the seller and hopefully sometime this weekend we can meet up and I can take a pile of pics.
As for the value of the finished car, my understanding is a replica (ie. not converted in the 20's) Speedster is only worth $5-10K unless it's something truly special. What can I expect as a minimum to put into this thing to get just a basic running chassis?
-Tim
There is a difference between getting a pile of rusted parts (even if they are connected)and a whole car.
With a pile of rusted parts you have to be concerned with cracked blocks,etc.
Remember it was most likely parked because it was too expensive to fix and since then mother nature has been doing her best to return it to the earth.
Get some pictures posted Tim. One man's junk is another man's treasure but one man's junk might just be junk too.
There are a couple of approaches to getting a Model T, and I've taken both.
One is to buy a "project" cheap. It may be mostly complete, but needs a complete restoration down to the nuts and bolts. A lot of people enjoy doing the work themselves and hunting down needed parts, and the completed project provides a lot of satisfaction. Some folks spend a lot of time on it, see it through, and finish in a year or two. Others may take several years, or lose interest and sell the unfinished project. In any of those cases, you can expect to spend more dough than you'll ever get back, even doing all your own work.
The other approach is to spend more going in and buy a T that's already been done, so you can enjoy driving it right away. The advantage of this approach is not only having a running T quickly, but also saving a lot of money, because in almost all cases you're getting it for less than the seller spent on it.
Some folks (like me) take both approaches. I have the touring car I bought running and drive often, plus a couple of T's I bought complete but needing some work, and a couple of ground-up projects. I've had one of those projects for twenty years and may live long enough to finish it, but I'm glad I bought at least one T I could drive and enjoy right away.
Regarding what Wayne said . . . here's a really nicely done Speedster body. I dig the wood, the plank floor, and especially the seats. A comparable Rootlieb plywood kit couldn't touch it. So what's it worth?
Well first time around on T-bay it went to $423. At the second day of he auction I contacted the seller and indicated that $1K is probably as much as he can hope for. He wanted . . . [drums] . . . $8k!
Now it's up again, his reserve lowered to $7K. How can you reason with insanity?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/?cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649&item=3706 16591996&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT
This car was buried on a farm for many decades and was dug up in the 60's. For me, the below "Before" condition would have been too far gone...
...but, amazingly, it was restored to the below "after" condition, so, I guess, for some people there is no "too far gone". Jim Patrick
Jim, I would have to think that car should be called assembled, not restored, what came off the first one to go on the second one.
I agree Mike. Maybe the chassis, differential, engine block, front axle, wishbone and other heavier parts, but the thinner parts all had to be replaced.
In the before pictures you can see where they have strings suspended from the ceiling, tied to the various sheet metal and windshield parts to hold the fenders and parts in place where they would be if they had support, to show that it was a car, but without the strings it would be all piled into an unrecognizable heap.
Jim.......if I ever get THAT desperate I'm checking out........permanently........
Jim P,
I have "restored" cars that were about that bad when I got them. But I didn't wind up with one as nice as that "after" from one that bad. I am impressed.
Besides, speedsters are easier to resurrect than factory type cars.
As to the cost to return a rusty pile into a running chassis? It depends a lot on the beginning condition, how complete it is, how good you are at scrounging needed materials, how much of the work you can do yourself, and what the quality will be when you get it running.
If an engine is in decent shape, I can rework it for about $400. (My cost to me.) That would be rings, valves, gaskets, and refit everything plus replace several other parts as needed. (There are always a few parts that need to be replaced.) But then, I am a seasoned scrounge, and can do most engine and repair work myself (except for bore and Babbitt).
On the other hand. It is not uncommon for a good restorer to drop over $5000 into a nice stock type engine. High-end speedster or pre-'14 horseless carriage can even double or triple that amount. (I know of one race car T engine that cost over $20,000. You should hear it!)
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Steve the highway 77 I mentioned is here in Central Texas. So maybe we are neighbors that are about 600-800 miles apart?
Yep, same highway. It runs from Brownsville to Sioux City. Or is it Sioux City to Brownsville?
Well, I was hoping to get out and see the T this weekend but after the seller told me on Friday that he'd call me with w time he never got back to me. Wasn't answering his phone, either.
Looks like I'll be trying this again next weekend...
I keep checking back because I want to hear another T will be saved!
Good luck!
W2
The main problem with most people that have old T's rusting in the field or barn is that they don't have a clue as to how much the pile is worth and are afraid they will be taken advantage of by a rich scoundrel.
Some think that their pile of junk is worth thousands and others hope it is worth thousands.
One way to convince them that a few hundred dollars is not a rip off is to show them that a decent running T is worth about $5,000 and give them a copy of Lang's catalog so they can see how much it takes to get a pile of rust running -
I bought this about 6 wks ago, Three weeks later I had her running... June 15th I take posession of my 2nd 24T Be very careful it's habit forming. Good Luck, Henry
Cool! Do you mind if I ask how much it cost to get it running?
Henry I still have your parts laid aside for you 23 in TT rear wheel, rim, 30 x 3 1/2 in front wheels, rims and tires danuser88@ktis.net
from this...
TO this
with all the original sheet metal, mechanical
and engine
2 years of work
Jim,
Just wondering how you got the "after" photo above. It was taken in a little known storage facility where the City of Detroit stores its car collection. Very few people get a peek inside that building. Don't worry, I'm not suggesting you did anything wrong by posting the photo, it's just my curiosity.
Since this turned to a show and tell about where a T came from -- I'll show and tell also
The original owner of our 1919 Model T with some of his kids and grandchildren when it was moved from a barn to a shed sometime before 1950.
The tires were stolen during the war.
The same car in about 1962 after it was restored in the mid 50's.
That's me behind the steering wheel!
Here it is again in 2011 after being in a barn since 1964.
We cleaned it up, put air in the tires, changed the oil, rebuilt the carb, and started it.
This time with my granddaughters!
We are still looking for the original side curtains at my mom's home.
Careful examination reveals that the right rear fender is still misshaped.
Since this turned to a show and tell about where a T came from -- I'll show and tell also
The original owner of our 1919 Model T with some of his kids and grandchildren when it was moved from a barn to a shed sometime before 1950.
The tires were stolen during the war.
The same car in about 1962 after it was restored in the mid 50's.
That's me behind the steering wheel!
Here it is again in 2011 after being in a barn since 1964.
We cleaned it up, put air in the tires, changed the oil, rebuilt the carb, and started it.
This time with my granddaughters!
We are still looking for the original side curtains at my mom's home.
Careful examination reveals that the right rear fender is still misshaped.
Sorry Don't know what happened -- I am having trouble posting this --
I Got Lucky and Bought a Coil Box W/coils 50.00 On E-bay And Once I Fixed The short In the Box They All Fired, Rebuilt The Carb, Head Gasket and valve springs. new wiring from Langs. Probably 500.00 to get it running. But I tell You I'm a wrench all my life, you have compression, you have spark, you have fuel, You choke it thru once or twice. turn it on and it fires on the second Pull. Priceless! Good Luck, Henry