I have a question regarding the front wheels on my 1913 and I know that one of you guys knows the question. First off, I do realize that these are later model 30 x 3 wheels because of the square fellows, but they're going to have to do until I can find a good set of the correct ones. The question involves how the fellows are attached to the steel rim.
Today while my son was driving the car around the field next door to my shop I noticed that one of the front wheels seemed to be wobbling really bad. When he stopped I looked it over and it appears that the outer rim has shifted out on one side and in on the opposite side, almost like it pivoted around a line drawn through the two plates at the ends of the fellows.
Exactly how are the fellows secured to the outer rim, and is this a common problem that I need to keep an eye on?
Thanks,
Deron
The pressure of the rim against the wood felloe is what keeps the rim on the felloe. As the wood shrinks, the rim may become loose from the felloe. The rivets keep the rim centered on the felloe but the rivets in and of themselves should not be relied upon to keep the rim on the felloe.
The only way to tighten a wood felloe wheel is to remove the rim, put a shim of sheet metal or wood veneer around the felloe, heat the rim and shrink it back on to the felloe. This solution is for wheels with good sound wood.
My dad and I tightened up a good set of wheels as described above. If you search the forum, you will find a number of threads regarding tightening up wood felloe wheels.
Thanks Erik,
I think what happened was my son turned the wheel fairly sharp (thankfully at a very slow speed) and hit a bump at the same time because I saw the front wheels turn to full lock and it jerked the steering wheel. I figure that the side load on the tire must have scooted the rim on the fellow. So most likely I can just scoot it back in line and watch it carefully until I can find a good pair of the correct wheels.
Deron
Here's a thread regarding tightening wood felloe wheels:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/98511.html
The felloe is attached to the rim by rivets. Perhaps one of them has worked loose.
Daron Shady;
You definitely have a couple of rivets that have pulled out of the wheel. I will never understand why the Ford Company did not bevel the outer part of the hole. All they did was mash the end of the rivet in the straight hole the best they could which often leads to slipping.
When putting new rivets in a wheel I ALWAYS BEVEL THE OUTER END OF THE HOLE and I have never had one of my rivets slip.
Do not drive it that way. Re-rivet or replace the rivets with some reasonable bolt. Years ago, a friend of mine added a couple flat-head (Tapered on the bottom of the head) bolts with square nuts showing on the fellow. IF you do this. Be SURE to cut/drill an appropriate taper into the rim (not too big, or the head could pull through the rim). File and/or sand the edges of the bolt head. And USE a rim liner. This is one place where there is no argument, a rim liner or duct tape or something must be used to protect the tube or the bolt head will cause a leak. (I guess we could argue over which is the best way to protect the tube.)
Very few people ever notice the square nuts and small washer on the wood felley.
All that is why it may be better to re-rivet provided the wheel is tight enough. You may have to re-drill the hole, put a little taper cut in the rim, and it only takes about ten minutes to install a new rivet. File flat and smooth. No rim liner needed.
This one rim probably needs all the rivets replaced.
Good luck!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Thanks guys,
I'm a bit puzzled though because I don't recall seeing any rivet holes in the fellow...??? I didn't look that closely though, so I might run out to the shop today and have another look. I did notice that the two front wheels look to have been from different manufacturers because the passenger side wheel does have rivets showing. Did any of Ford's suppliers manufacture them with only the two rivets where the ends of the fellow halves butt together?
Deron
I finally had a few minutes to mess with my 1913 today and here's a few photos of the wheel in question. I was able to take a rubber mallet and pop it back into position with very little effort so it's obviously loose, but what I found odd is that it doesn't have any rivets attaching the fellows to the rim. Was this just one of the different supplier's variants, or ??? Being that these aren't the correct wheels for a 1913 I'm not going to waste a bunch of time or money restoring them, but I would be curious to know a little more about it. I assume that this version relied solely on friction and the two pieces that join the fellow halves to keep everything in line.
Deron
If it is that easy to pop back into place, I wouldn't trust that wheel for more than rolling the car around in the shop. The minimum I would recomend is to drill and place rivets at the center of each fellow 1/2. I could just imagine what could happen when going around a corner at speed and that rim flips off like a bucket handle. Protect your investment as well as the lives of you and your passengers by fixing this before you take the car out in the street AT ALL.
As is, those are not safe to drive on. The odd bolt shown in the last photo, and its mate at 180 opposite, are all that's holding the felloes in your rims. At a minimum, add at least 4 more bolts/rivets, going through the steel rim and the wood felloes. Consider also shimming & shrinking as described above. Best move would be new spokes. Don't play games with wheels, it's how people get hurt and how antique cars get a bad reputation.
Jerry VanOoteghem:
You can't tell from pictures but the spokes look like they may be OK. You would have to be there to test them. My guess would be that you might get by with the spokes but you need a bunch of rivets.
Dave,
Yes, the spokes do look good as far as condition of the wood. They are no longer tight in the rim however, hence his problem. Adding the rivets, which I also suggested, will help to prevent things from coming apart but they will not make the spokes/felloes tight in the rim. Only shimming & shrinking or new wood will do that.
I recommend shimming between the rim and felloe. In my opinion, the rivets are for location and preventing catastrophic failure if things get loose without you noticing. They are not intended to be relied on as a structural element.
You could probably make those felloes look better with a roundover bit in a router.
rdr
Thanks guys. I realize they're not safe and have no intention of driving the car other than in and out of the shop, but I don't see any point in wasting time (or money) on an incorrect pair of wheels. I've located a pair of the correct front wheels and will restore then when I get a chance, but more than anything I was curious to know if this design was a common variety from one of Ford's suppliers. Seems like a really lousy design to me.
Deron
Looks like it already has a steel shim between the spokes and the felloe? It does not look typical of any Model T wheels I have seen before. Might be home made spokes and fellow from "back in the day", or perhaps something from an auto part store back then.
I think what Royce sees is actually varnish. My opinion is that it isn't exactly an unrestored car. It has a 1950s style restoration (fix or paint what only needs fixing or painting, varnish the wheels, plywood firewall, motor with 1950s/60s Ford aqua green engine paint) which suffered from poor storage conditions.
That is a much later and common square felloe wheel with large "staple" style rivets. I see that style on a regular basis at swap meets. I also have a pair of square felloe 30x3.5 wheels just like them on my '17 roadster. They are also incorrect for my car but they are on the front axle and were installed by the original owner who used the car until 1948. He probably did it because 30x3 tires were hard to come by in later years.
I can't be 100% certain if they are Ford issue or aftermarket but I assume they are genuine Ford because I have seen a lot of that particular style of wheel.
There are also square felloe wheels that have plates at the joint, similar to earlier round-felloe wheels. I also have that style among the wheels in my parts inventory.
Well, I wouldn't exactly call it restored.... The car has been used and maintained with little or no regard to replacing worn out parts with the correct stuff, but if this is how they "restored" cars back in the 1950's then I'm glad I wasn't around then....
Royce, I think what you are seeing is the scuff marks in the surface rust where the fellow scooted out of place. I can't see any evidence of shims in there.
But thanks for the replies and the info. I was just curious because I have a number of 30 x 3 wheels and none of them are like this one, including the right front wheel. It just made me wonder....
Deron
Have seen those clamp claw type non-demountable too.
But those of Deron's are long past gone. The wood spokes are decayed and that rim is loose.
The most typical square felloe non-demountable have plates with rivets that joint the two piece felloe wood, and have rivets also spaced around the felloe into the rim too.
plate with rivets in upper right
rivets spaced around rim
Thanks Dan,
That's what all my others look like, including the right front on the car. Yep, the rim is certainly loose! Time to go park it in the creek for a while... ;-)
Deron
Deron:
I looked at your Picasa Web Album and see that the front axle, brake handle, pan inspection cover, etc. on your car had been painted red at one time.
I noticed two red wheels in one of your photos (see below). Perhaps those wheels were on your car at one time and were painted red when the car was "spruced up." Could they possibly be the original/correct round felloe wheels that came with your car?
Were you able to take any of the spare Model T parts when you picked up your '13?
Erik,
I risked life and limb digging those wheels out of the bottom of that pile in the photo (the wooden floor had already begun to fall through), only to find they were later smaller diameter wheels.... That's why they were sitting right out front when the picture was taken. The red color is what caught my eye in the first place. I doubt that any of the missing (or changed) parts were in the building though, because the family that owned the car was merely renting storage space from the building owner.
To give you a better idea of the scope of that pile of stuff in the photo, there is an entire Kissel chassis and a spare rear axle (big enough for a dump truck!) at the bottom of that pile. I give it another year max before it's all in the dirt three feet below what used to be the floor. Cool old building though. The owner told me that it was built around 1910 and was originally an automotive garage!
Deron
I don't think yours is an original Ford issue wheel. I have also seen wheels like that. Often on non-Ford '10s cars. There were a number of wheel companies that made replacement wheels for Ts. I would guess it is on of those.
Being a cheap SOG, I would rework that wheel. It could be made to be as good as when it was new.
BUT, Replacing it with a correct wheel is a better idea. As a temporary fix. With the two clamps at the 12 & 6 o'clock position, put four good solid rivets in at the 2,4,8,10 o'clock positions. If you took the time to properly re-shim the fellow, heating the rim into place, that would be a good repair.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2