Small tour and question on starts

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Small tour and question on starts
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Pletcher on Sunday, May 27, 2012 - 05:36 pm:

This afternoon my wife and I had a small tour in the '26 T roadster. (I think I read here that any ride in a T that ended at an ice cream shop was a tour.)

It was too hot to go far, plus it took two trips. Molly, my Golden Retriever, insists on a treat, so she got her own trip to get an ice cream treat. The T ran fine, but made me think of a question I have to this group.

When discussing the T with school groups, I mention the ability to sometimes start without starter or crank. I usually retard the spark, richen the mix until it starts to stumble, turn off the ignition, and then turn the switch to battery. Lately I haven't had it work as well. Am I doing anything wrong? Perhaps you know a better way to get a free start. Should I try a different procedure?

(I hesitated to bring this up because of heated past discussions about what to call this. I really dopn't want to cause that.)

Regards,
Larry Pletcher


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Ida Fls on Sunday, May 27, 2012 - 06:11 pm:

Out of five T's I only have one that starts like that very often. I suspect it has a very tight bore as it seized once in 1966 and once in 2008. It was bored by an old timer who wasn't used to aluminum pistons. I had it start 22 times in a row without cranking in the 1960's. I have a routine some days of going to breakfast, the doctor, the bank and home. It nearly always starts by itself at the bank but usually not anywhere else. Some days it will give a chuff when I turn on the key after sitting for a day or two. Two of the other cars have "surprise started" a time or two, but not like this one.
Of course it's a matter of holding compression and everything lining up right with just the right mixture in the cylinder, but there are a lot of variables.
Rich
If yours has started on command you are lucky and maybe one of the variables has changed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Sunday, May 27, 2012 - 07:29 pm:

I get free starts on mine a lot of the time. Once, I primed it, turned on the switch, and as I was just getting ready to reach for the crank, it fired to life on it's own. Scared the crap out of me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, May 27, 2012 - 08:28 pm:

I had what happened to William happen several times on one of mine. If the spark lever had been advanced when that happened, he or I would have had a broken arm. Be very careful when turning on a car which has been primed. Be sure the spark is retarded!

I think Larry might have had his fuel too rich. I find that I get free starts after I turn it off just the way it has been running, and then start within 5 minutes.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 07:29 am:

I don't know if there's anything to it, but someone on this forum once posted that they believed a worn engine was more prone to 'free starts'. I've also seen people say that retarding the timing all the way and opening the throttle just before shut down will help make it 'free start'. I always retard the spark before shut down, but I get them pretty regularly without opening the throttle on shutdown.

I'm not sure I know what causes one. I don't believe it has anything to do with compression, as some report free starts after having been shut down for weeks. Even an engine in tip top shape won't hold any compression for weeks, and I believe a four cylinder engine is going to stop with the pistons at mid stroke, so not a lot of compression at that point anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 11:35 am:

IMHO I like to burn out the gas in the cylinder when I shut off the engine. I leave the carb adjustment alone and don't choke it. Then retard the spark and turn off the key. The reason, I do this, and this is in theory only, no proof, but I think if you choke it right before turn off, the extra gas will wash down the cylinder walls causing a "dry start". This might not be a problem if you intend to restart very soon after shutdown, but if it is parked a long time, it will just tend to dilute the oil and wash off the rings and cylinders, thereby making it even harder to start, and possibly speed up wear on the parts.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert G. Hester Jr., Riverview, FL on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 12:42 pm:

My 22 TT is very good about free starts. I've found it does better if I advance the throttle 2 or 3 notches and fully retard the spark before I shut it down. Here's what I think happens in a free start. When you cut the ignition the engine will coast through 1 or 2 more compression strokes so that there are some cylinders that have unburned mixture. As the engine stops it rocks back somewhat. So now we have a piston that has backed part-way through what would have been it's power stroke toward, but not all the way to, top dead center in a cylinder that has mixture. Switching to battery, with spark fully retarded, will cause that cylinder's coil to buzz causing a weak explosion in that cylinder, sending the piston down the remainder of it's power stroke. If this stroke is powerful enough to send the nexr piston in the order over top dead center she's off and running. Free starts are a lot of fun and great crowd pleasers. :-)

P.S. I don't think free starts have anything to do with "retained" compression. No T model engine nor many others for that matter, are going to retain compression for more that a few seconds after shut-down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 01:02 pm:

Robert, do you mean compression stroke? Power stroke is down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 01:04 pm:

Nevermind, second reading of it, I understood what you meant.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tman - Right Coast on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 01:16 pm:

My auto start always worked on my T as long as I pushed up on the throttle and let it rev a little before I shut it off. The only problem I am having is I can't get it to work from inside the house like my modern car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darin Hull on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 12:01 pm:

William,

You comment's honesty made me laugh out loud. Too bad there wasn't a video camera going to record your reaction. :-)

Darin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 01:03 pm:

I get a free start almost every time I start the car in the garage after sitting for weeks.

I jack the rear wheel, put the brake handle part way forward, open the throttle about 4 notches, close the choke, and give it a few good pulls.

Then I put the spark about 2 notches down and turn the key to battery.
91.2056% of the time it starts!
If it dosen't start I move the spark lever down and 83.5567% of the remaining time it is enough to get it going.

It does it less often once it is warm.
It might be because the wheel is on the ground and there is a little resistance thru the transmission.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 01:42 pm:

My car surprised me with a free start once and only once.

The way I figure it, if the next cylinder in line to fire is filled with vaporized fuel, the piston is in just the right place, your compression is high, your battery is fully charged, the coil involved is properly adjusted; and if your hands are clean and your heart is pure—and there are no witnesses—yes, free starts can happen.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 03:44 pm:

Our's are much more prone to doing it when warm. I have gotten them cold when I've done some priming beforehand. And I've gotten them to kick a little cold even without priming. I don't remember if I've ever had one actually start up cold without doing anything but turn on the switch. If I have it's only been once or twice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Pletcher on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 07:36 am:

Thank you all for your advice. I did a search and found additional advice that pretty much goes with what I read here. I suspect that making little adjustments for gas and spark improve the chances, but the engine needs to stop at the right place for it to work. No one mentioned moon phases; does that make any difference?? THanks again.
Regards,
Larry


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