Anyone reused the taper bearing pinion spools?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Anyone reused the taper bearing pinion spools?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 03:12 am:

So my pinion bearing is not looking too flash right now, The inner sleeve taps over the shaft easily with a hammer and has weird grooves worn in it and i was wondering if anyone has pulled apart a driveshaft and found a tapered roller bearing with parts missing and reused it? i think i found one somewhere but it is buried under too much junk to find right now. So i looked up the installation instructions online and it is most definitely missing parts including some collar thing that looks like a slotted ring with a grub screw in it, Is this really needed? Looks hard to make (why would the bearing need preloading?) i have no shims for it either and cannot buy shim metal because i live in an outpost of china (pretending to be an old british colony) that hates us too much to sell shim metal anywhere.
i also lost my pinion nut, It appears hardened? Can i cut down an axle hub nut? Can't buy nuts here either, They only sell coarse threaded 6,8,10,12 mil' nuts that are made of soft brittle stuff pretending to be metal for the same reason we cannot buy shim metal here. The axle nuts look soft i can turn them to mush with a ratchet with only one hand (they strip their threads off) If they are too soft i would like to know.
i know the creator of the bearing reads this forum sometimes so i guess he would know best


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 11:36 am:

Kep NZ:

I have never seen a tapered roller bearing in the rear of a drive shaft. I have 20 mostly NOS thrust ball bearings. that goes between the inner race and the torque tube. I am out of the cupped early thrust ball bearings. Any way I would be glad to send you one of the late thrust bearings at no charge if you want to send freight. The bearing would be 2591 and 2591b in Langs catalog page 23. If you have a tapered bearing in your differential it would be some kind of after market thing. Maybe like 2587PB2 page 23 in Langs Catalog. Maybe you could send a picture of the bearing?

picture


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Peterson on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 12:04 pm:

The whole idea of those taper bearing kits is to hold the pinyon gear in place from that end of the drive line rather than utilizing the thrust face of the bushing at the other end as Henry's engineers designed it. The collar is important to hold the bearing in place against the race. Without it the bearing would be able to drift in two planes away from the ring gear--back and forth as well as left and right--with potentially disastrous results. Especially if no accessory brakes are installed! If shims are needed, it would be an easy matter for any of us who have installed these in the past to put some in an envelope an send them to you. There are plenty supplied with the kit and there are enough to do several instalations. The collars may be available at any bearing supply house, you would just need to know the diameter of the shaft. Good luck, these are a very good product and well worth the effort.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 06:41 pm:

Be advised that there were a few makers of tapered bearing kits before I started making mine. In fact the one I make was fostered by the fact that one of the other type I bought failed in less than 50 miles. Before I would give you any advice I would need to see a picture of what you have. My company sells both adjustable and non adjustable versions of the pinion bearing kit and the spools for those are NOT interchangeable and more than a few guys have tried to save some money by trying to buy the non adjustable kit and then attempting to add shims. That will always result in trouble because the final bearing is already in the best possible location generally and adding shims will be pure guesswork since it is even possible that the pinion ideally might want to go the other direction a wee amount. First determine exactly who made the pinion kit you have and then determine if it is in good serviceable condition. Ours are very carefully setup and the parts are trimmed to make each pinion kit perfect so playing musical parts can degrade its performance. Post some pictures and let me see what you have. A complete pinion bearing kit isn't all that expensive compared to having to tear it back down or worse - by adding parts to it that are then not installed properly internally. The kit we make deals with both horizontal thrust and vertical (axial) load. It does this very well if all parts are assembled correctly and then installed in the T rear end with careful attention to detail. We have shipped to NZ before and flat rate boxes through the post office I think are available to NZ. Start by posting a picture of what you have. Shoot good sharp pictures so I can determine which model you have or if it is indeed one that we made.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 12:44 am:

weird wear patternThis is worn in a way that is too weird even for me. Note the use of a grinder to cut a slot for the keyway.
Here are some photos of the replacement type bearing.
Seems to have survived being under water quite well with all the oil in was soaked in

Oh.. the pictures have malfunctioned. Some worked though!
Question: If the universal joint holds the driveshaft from falling backward into the crownwheel, Will i still need the locking collar thing?

Thank you for looking. Not sure about the pinion nut yet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 12:59 am:

Forgot to add something! Not sure if this makes a difference but the taper bearing only slides over a shaft that is worn, Not over a good shaft. Does this make a difference?
(i kind of need the car for work purposes so i am slightly reluctant to buy more parts with waiting times)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 01:35 am:

Kep,

The inner sleeve appears to be used as a bushing to adapt the Timken bearing to the drive shaft. Being ugly should not be a problem. The thrust on the pinion will always be outboard. When you install the universal joint, it should fit snug (not tight) against the upper bushing in the housing. Seems to me you would need to assemble the driveshaft and check the pinion mesh with the ring gear. You might need a spacer between the pinion and the Timken bearing to get the right mesh. If there was no spacer when you took it apart then likely you wont need one. You could make one from a piece of pipe if necessary. Shims cloud be made from tin cans or galvanized steel roof flashing.

You might need some Loctite or epoxy to deal with the radial slop in fitting up the Timken bearing to to the drive shaft.

You should be able to face off an axle nut to fit to the driveshaft if the threads are the same.

I gather that you are in a remote area and need to patch it back together to use for transportation. You can most likely do this without being a purist and having access to all the correct parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 12:45 pm:

Kep,

Do not resort to using tin cans, roof flashing or glue to put your rear end back together. If any of that stuff is needed, then you've got other problems. The worn driveshaft sleeve in your first photo is junk. Let's see what John Regan has to say about what you show here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 01:45 pm:

Jerry,

My understanding of Kep's situation is that he is in Timbuktu and new parts are unavailable. He needs to patch the car so he has transportation.

My advice was based on that premise, if he were doing a total restoration it would be different.

Ted


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 02:14 pm:

The timken bearing only slides over the worn shaft, the good shaft would have to be trimmed down in diameter a few thousandths for the bearing to slide on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 05:06 pm:

Ted,

I understand what you're saying and I didn't want it to sound like I was "flaming" you. My take on it is that whether it's a total restoration or a patch, this is an important area that has safety concerns. It's one of those areas that should be in good condition if it's to be driven at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 05:40 pm:

The bearing looks like an offhanded copy of our design but with a different bearing on the front end and what appears to be a different location of the taper bearing. The internal dimensions on our bearings are based upon the final dimensions of the actual parts that were used in the "stock" setup. This is made differently with what appears to be some sort of "tire" on the front most bearing to thus use a smaller bearing. The timken bearing should not slide on the drive shaft but be "pulled" into final position by the gear and its nut. That operation is last since you then need a puller to pull the gear and bearing back off for any service to the bearing. If the tinken bearing fits loose on the shaft - the shaft can't be used for this sort of approach. It is imperative that all of the internal spacers be of the right size and that the centers of those bearings be concentric. If either bearing is tilted in the bore of the spool - that can cause some real issues. I am limited in what I can help you with since it is clearly not made exactly the same as ours and I cannot assume it works since the rear end would still then be together. Sorry I can't be more help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 06:05 pm:

The bearing looks like an offhanded copy of our design but with a different bearing on the front end and what appears to be a different location of the taper bearing. The internal dimensions on our bearings are based upon the final dimensions of the actual parts that were used in the "stock" setup. This is made differently with what appears to be some sort of "tire" on the front most bearing to thus use a smaller bearing. The timken bearing should not slide on the drive shaft but be "pulled" into final position by the gear and its nut. That operation is last since you then need a puller to pull the gear and bearing back off for any service to the bearing. If the tinken bearing fits loose on the shaft - the shaft can't be used for this sort of approach. It is imperative that all of the internal spacers be of the right size and that the centers of those bearings be concentric. If either bearing is tilted in the bore of the spool - that can cause some real issues. I am limited in what I can help you with since it is clearly not made exactly the same as ours and I cannot assume it works since the rear end would still then be together. Sorry I can't be more help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 06:08 pm:

Not sure why the double post. I probably got excited. I am waiting for word on my first baby grandchild. My daughter-in-law went into labor last night late. I am not of much use today ha ha.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 08:33 pm:

Double posts seem to be the in thing for glitches today. So anyway.. i was thinking i would put it together like this and buy one of yours when i have time and money to do it right.
Thanks for the info' guys, And thankyou for letting me use this forum as a place to gather knowledge on fixing old cars.


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