Two Tone Colours : Closed Car

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Two Tone Colours : Closed Car
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 05:58 pm:

There has been some interesting discussion on another thread regarding two tone colours. The topic has moved away from the original intent of the first posting. Out of respect for Dave's original thread I feel more comfortable posting what I have on the matter with a new thread.When I bought my Fordor in 1978 it was unrestored and still had the two tone Black and Blue paint work. The car is a Canadian import as most of our Model T's were here in Australia. After WW1 most our Model T bodies were manufactured by Australian Body Companies. The exception being the Closed Cars. They were imported from Canada. I have been told that some of these Closed Cars were repainted when they arrived here.

We have seen evidence from the pictures that Jim posted on the other thread that New Zealand also followed this practice.

There also is solid evidence that Ford in England offered Closed Cars in two tone colours. In the book " The English Model T Ford " page 167 there are two illustrations taken from an original leaflet, of a Fordor and a Tudor Sedan. Both cars are two tone and were offered in the following body colours: Orriford Lake, Cobalt Blue,or Empire Grey,the grey being the lower body colour it would appear from the illustrations.

I do appreciate the effort that everyone promoted on the other thread and I hope I haven't stepped out of line in starting this new thread. Best regards, John

Here is a photo of our Fordor taken by the previous owner and prior to my buying it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 06:19 pm:

Thank you for expounding on this subject John and starting a new thread. My apologies to Dave for getting off track.

Since 2 toned bodies (a darker color above the body belt and a lighter color below the belt with black, I think, fenders) look so good (to me), why do you suppose it was commonly done as a matter of course in Britain, Australia and New Zealand, while, in America, it was rarely, if ever done?

Does anyone in the countries above have an color photos or vintage color ads showing examples of the 2 toned cars and the color combinations that were used? Jim Patrick




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 06:40 pm:

Thanks Jim for keeping this subject going. I think that we ( We being the countries you mention ) probable had a bit more freedom in regard to what we did. I also think Henry Ford had a tighter grip on controlling what went on in the U.S. For copyright reasons I can't post the pictures from the" English Model T Ford " book. For research purposes I may see if I can get permission to do so. I think this type of research is worthwhile and helps us better understand just how versatile our beloved Model T's were.
Best regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 07:05 pm:

Are copyrights in your country indefinite?

I read where copyrights here in America that were granted before 1978 are good for 28 years. Those granted after 1978 are good for the life of the author plus 70 years. I supposed other factors can come into play that may alter these guidelines. See: www.copyright.gov/help/faq. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 09:40 pm:

John,

Thanks for starting the second posting about the color – I didn’t want to post on the questions about who owned the early 1924 coupe.

Note—an owner today can paint their car anyway the desire or an owner back in the cay could paint his car any color he wanted. Ford was a bit of a control freak. Up until 1909ish Ford allowed and even sold lots of accessories for the cars (Gabriel Horns, head lights, tops, etc.) But there was a time period during the Model T production that if an owner installed any accessories other than a robe rail or something similar he could lose his warranty. However – individual dealers could work with their customers and as long as Henry didn’t find out – it was “no problem.” And Ford introduced accessories again later in the Model T production and even had the Ruckstell Axle listed in the later Price List of Parts books.

In the case of the English Ford Book – I would highly recommend it – great read. But I would caution anyone to be careful about basing information on a sales brochure from Ford. At least the USA ones were sometimes inaccurate and often had touched up photos and/or illustrations. [Why take a new photo or draw a new illustration if the old one can be modified.] They “airbrushed” ok changed the 1906 Model N chassis to show the Model R but they left step plate truss rod floating in free air for the 1907 Model R brochure. They show headlights floating with no headlamp brackets in one of the 1915 illustrations. And the one I like best is the 1931 160C Deluxe Fordor photo that was airbrushed to fill in the back side window to make it look like it had the metal rather than a roll down window. They did a good job, except they forgot to airbrush the back side window on the other side of the car. All that to say – the illustrations were published not to help restorers but to sell cars.

John – reference page 166 of the English Ford Book. Notice on the second column, second paragraph it discusses the two-tone paint scheme on the Fordor and Tudor sold in England. But it was BLACK and a color not two different colors. It says, “These “Ford Times” colour illustrations clearly show that in both models, the black of the leather cloth roof was brought down to the waist rail in black paint, giving a smart two tone color scheme, the black of the upper sides contrasting with the coloured paint below.”

Jim – I would say owners of Ts also used two-tone paint jobs. Below is a photo of “Ghost” as my Father purchased it back in the 1950s.



And another photo of it in color from this century – the same paint it had when Dad purchased it:



But Bob Kiefaber who has given Ghost a new home and is working to restore the car, discovered that it had been repainted. In this case at least 60 plus years ago. But it did not come from the factory with the two tone paint job. Could it have come from the dealer that way? Possibly – the Centerdoors were slow sellers in 1915 and several dealers installed starters to help move them along. So if painting it would have sold it – I suspect it would have been painted.

And then there are photos from Nov 1921 from New Zealand: Below are two photos showing the Canterbury Motor Company stand during a car show. Note the cars are new and two-tone paint job on the closed cars. The first photo is from the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/126359.html?1266737851 which the original is available at the
Alexander Turnbull Library, Wellington, New Zealand but I cannot find it at the moment.
[Copyright use information from the site: You can copy this item for personal use, share it, and post it on a blog or website. It cannot be used commercially without permission, please ask us for advice. If reproducing this item, please maintain the integrity of the image (i.e. don't crop, recolour or overprint it), and ensure the following credit accompanies it:
Motor show at King Edward Barracks, Christchurch. Head, Samuel Heath, d 1948 :Negatives. Ref: 1/1-007232-G. Alexander Turnbull Library, Wellington, New Zealand. http://beta.natlib.govt.nz/records/22908032 note the number is NOT correct for the first photo but is correct for the second photo. If anyone knows what the link / number to the first photo is please let us know.]





For those that are wondering about why the straight windshield roadster and the slant windshield touring are at the same new car show – I’m glad you asked. It appears that Ford of Canada went to the one-man top and slant windshield on the touring car with the 1920 model year but was substantially later before they went to the one man top and slant windshield on the roadster. Note Ford USA did a similar thing with going to the new style body on the touring with the 1921 model year -- lower seats, narrow arm rest, but continuing the old style roadster body until the introduction of the 1923 models. [And even then the 1923 USA slant windshield low cowl touring came out a couple of months before the 1923 USA slant windshield low cowl roadster (runabout). I would appreciate help with dating that change for the Canadian roadster. In the 1925 Canadian Price List of Parts, Ford of Canada did not list the one man top for the Roadster until 1923. As with other items – it may or may not be accurate and I would like to find some additional information to confirm or correct that. And the Canadian Roadster in the photo clearly has the older style top and the touring clearly has the new style top.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 09:41 pm:

John,

Thanks for starting the second posting about the color – I didn’t want to post on the questions about who owned the early 1924 coupe.

Note—an owner today can paint their car anyway the desire or an owner back in the cay could paint his car any color he wanted. Ford was a bit of a control freak. Up until 1909ish Ford allowed and even sold lots of accessories for the cars (Gabriel Horns, head lights, tops, etc.) But there was a time period during the Model T production that if an owner installed any accessories other than a robe rail or something similar he could lose his warranty. However – individual dealers could work with their customers and as long as Henry didn’t find out – it was “no problem.” And Ford introduced accessories again later in the Model T production and even had the Ruckstell Axle listed in the later Price List of Parts books.

In the case of the English Ford Book – I would highly recommend it – great read. But I would caution anyone to be careful about basing information on a sales brochure from Ford. At least the USA ones were sometimes inaccurate and often had touched up photos and/or illustrations. [Why take a new photo or draw a new illustration if the old one can be modified.] They “airbrushed” ok changed the 1906 Model N chassis to show the Model R but they left step plate truss rod floating in free air for the 1907 Model R brochure. They show headlights floating with no headlamp brackets in one of the 1915 illustrations. And the one I like best is the 1931 160C Deluxe Fordor photo that was airbrushed to fill in the back side window to make it look like it had the metal rather than a roll down window. They did a good job, except they forgot to airbrush the back side window on the other side of the car. All that to say – the illustrations were published not to help restorers but to sell cars.

John – reference page 166 of the English Ford Book. Notice on the second column, second paragraph it discusses the two-tone paint scheme on the Fordor and Tudor sold in England. But it was BLACK and a color not two different colors. It says, “These “Ford Times” colour illustrations clearly show that in both models, the black of the leather cloth roof was brought down to the waist rail in black paint, giving a smart two tone color scheme, the black of the upper sides contrasting with the coloured paint below.”

Jim – I would say owners of Ts also used two-tone paint jobs. Below is a photo of “Ghost” as my Father purchased it back in the 1950s.



And another photo of it in color from this century – the same paint it had when Dad purchased it:



But Bob Kiefaber who has given Ghost a new home and is working to restore the car, discovered that it had been repainted. In this case at least 60 plus years ago. But it did not come from the factory with the two tone paint job. Could it have come from the dealer that way? Possibly – the Centerdoors were slow sellers in 1915 and several dealers installed starters to help move them along. So if painting it would have sold it – I suspect it would have been painted.

And then there are photos from Nov 1921 from New Zealand: Below are two photos showing the Canterbury Motor Company stand during a car show. Note the cars are new and two-tone paint job on the closed cars. The first photo is from the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/126359.html?1266737851 which the original is available at the
Alexander Turnbull Library, Wellington, New Zealand but I cannot find it at the moment.
[Copyright use information from the site: You can copy this item for personal use, share it, and post it on a blog or website. It cannot be used commercially without permission, please ask us for advice. If reproducing this item, please maintain the integrity of the image (i.e. don't crop, recolour or overprint it), and ensure the following credit accompanies it:
Motor show at King Edward Barracks, Christchurch. Head, Samuel Heath, d 1948 :Negatives. Ref: 1/1-007232-G. Alexander Turnbull Library, Wellington, New Zealand. http://beta.natlib.govt.nz/records/22908032 note the number is NOT correct for the first photo but is correct for the second photo. If anyone knows what the link / number to the first photo is please let us know.]





For those that are wondering about why the straight windshield roadster and the slant windshield touring are at the same new car show – I’m glad you asked. It appears that Ford of Canada went to the one-man top and slant windshield on the touring car with the 1920 model year but was substantially later before they went to the one man top and slant windshield on the roadster. Note Ford USA did a similar thing with going to the new style body on the touring with the 1921 model year -- lower seats, narrow arm rest, but continuing the old style roadster body until the introduction of the 1923 models. [And even then the 1923 USA slant windshield low cowl touring came out a couple of months before the 1923 USA slant windshield low cowl roadster (runabout). I would appreciate help with dating that change for the Canadian roadster. In the 1925 Canadian Price List of Parts, Ford of Canada did not list the one man top for the Roadster until 1923. As with other items – it may or may not be accurate and I would like to find some additional information to confirm or correct that. And the Canadian Roadster in the photo clearly has the older style top and the touring clearly has the new style top.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 09:44 pm:

Sorry about the double post -- for some reason the computer asked me to upload the photos after I hit post. My bad -- I thought that was not normal and I should have checked.

Hap


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 11:02 pm:

Thank you Hap,
As always your contributions are full of great information. Following on from your story of " Ghost ", here is a link from a past Forum discussion that will undoubtedly create some interest.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/257521.html?1325737261

Best regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 11:07 pm:

Thank you Hap,
As always your contributions are full of great information. Following on from your story of " Ghost ", here is a link from a past Forum discussion that will undoubtedly create some interest.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/257521.html?1325737261

Best regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 11:10 pm:

It looks like I have done the same Hap. Sorry to Everyone. JP.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 01:03 am:

There is information and existing original cars to indicate the Ford in Australia two toned 27 model Ts to help sales as they declined before the introduction of the A model. These were the open cars produced at the Geelong Ford Plant. I don't know about the imported closed cars.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Brand on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 05:27 am:

I'm really pleased to see this discussion. I have the remains of a right hand drive 26-27 Tudor (original Australian delivered car) and it has two tone paint. I'm reasonably sure its the original paint because there's no trace of different colored paint underneath it. The lower body is blue, the upper body is black. If I remember correctly the stripe below the belt line is yellow but I need to check that in the daylight to confirm.

Andrew.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 06:50 am:

For Hap,

Slight correction on the slant windscreen Touring Car, made in Canada. It was the 1921 model year, and first available here in New Zealand in October, 1920.

For all...

The two-tone colour scheme was available on the closed cars "in any colour". They were painted here, by the dealers. The second colour was simply applied over the original.
My guess is (although I've never seen it stated) that it was a strategy to make the closed cars more appealing. I say that because there was still buyer resistance into the twenties, and for two reasons. The first was cost (they were considerably more expensive than the open cars). The second was health - this was before safety glass, and people really wanted to avoid the possibility of death by glass shards!

Below is a scan of the cover pic of the Ford News, October 1921 of a two-tone T in "Maoriland", as New Zealand was often referred to back then.

Finally, why were these changes found on Canadian and English sourced Fords, but not US ones? It is my understanding that the US dealers were prohibited from changing anything other than the product that was presented to them from Ford in Detroit via the Ford assembly plants. Clearly, Canada and England did not have such restrictions placed on them.

Best wishes
John Stokes

 Centredoor Sedan in Maoriland


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 07:00 am:

Also, the other two-tone discussion must be wildly off-topic as it doesn't seem to be obvious from the current thread titles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 08:31 am:

Selling Fords in Australia always appears to have included offering a color choice for most of the Model T's life.

Any Colonial bodied Ford gave the buyer the opportunity to pick the color he wanted. The different colored 1916-16 cars in the thread showing the cars dressed for a parade show that even the Canadian bodied cars were repainted. Whether this was to help sell them or the buyer had it done to make an individual statement is hard to tell. One reason could be that the cars shown being early 1915 style with forked head lights were repainted because they were some of the excess stock the dealers found themselves with at the end of 1916.

The 1924 Tarrant bodied cars shown from another thread were offered in various colors which the owner could pick when buying.
tarrant1924

Under the illustrations it says "Chassis, running board shields, fenders,running boards, painted black, body and bonnet painted servicable colour". (Australian spelling)

The Fordor sedan and coupe were offered only in "Brilliant black lustre finish".

I would think that some buyers would have asked and paid for a second color for those cars having seen the touring and roadster with other colors on them.

As to why they didn't sell many sedans and coupes, first there was the extra cost but the Davies brothers stated they had trouble selling them because the hot Australian weather made them unsuitable for local use. Something which seems reasonable as Ford in Canada preached their advantage being they were more suitable for the cold northern winter.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 09:44 am:

Boy this is interesting as I have been thinking of painting my 21 Touring restoration a nice contrasting color with black fenders and running boards and shields.
I have contemplated some of the 26-27 colors so this information really gives me 'courage' to get away from a totally black 21 Touring!
Thanks for the interesting color thread.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Patterson (Aust) on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 03:28 pm:

My Canadian built, Australia bodied (Steenbhom's) 3 door '21 is painted in an exact match of its original colour.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 05:35 am:

Andrew, Thanks for posting the photos of the body panels. Very interesting. It would appear that they are from a Tudor Sedan. Do you have enough panels to rebuild the sedan body?
Thanks to all you N.Z. & Aussie blokes for your contributions to the discussion. Very informative and interesting.
Here is another picture of our Fordor soon after we bought it.By then it looked a little better than the first picture I posted here yesterday.
Best regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 07:10 am:

In New Zealand there are lots of different colours mentioned over the years on open and closed cars just a few are: a biscuit colour, an option for a pretty green, with wide brown band picked out with black and a straw line,a wine colour, golden drown





Completely off track is an comic comment from a NZ paper in 1924 showing what happens when all fords are black.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Brand on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 05:07 am:

Hi John. It is a Tudor sedan. I have most of the body which was saved from a hot rodder in the 70's, but not before he dismantled and cut it vertically to shorten it. I plan to put it back together - a big job but worth doing as its one of the few original RHD Tudors to have survived.

Andrew


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 07:18 am:

Hello Andrew,
Thank you for your reply. If you would care to send me a P.M. through the Forum I would like to communicate further. You can view my profile by clicking on my name on this postings.
Best regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 07:24 am:

Alex, Thank you for posting the advertisements from New Zealand.
A great source of documented evidence that the cars were available in different colours. Best regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 10:18 am:

Apparently some Fords left the factory black and became two-tone on their own. In March I bought a 1923 Fordor from the nephew of Gene Salzman, the late owner. The car came with a notebook containing this from Gene:

I found the 1923 aluminum body Model T in an old wood shed near Watertown, WI. I bought it March 30th, 1976. It belonged to a farmer who had died 40 years before and the family had never moved it. When I took a broom and got some of the dust off of it, I noticed the body was blue. I said to the son,”Your father must have painted it blue sometime.” He said, “No, he never painted it,” and couldn’t understand why it had turned blue and the fenders still black.
On the way home I remembered reading that Ford had made a few four-door sedans with aluminum bodies. Maybe that was why the black paint on the body had oxidized during all those years and turned to blue. When I got home I put a magnet on the body and sure enough it was aluminum.
It took me a few years to restore the car to its present condition. I removed all the paint down to the bare aluminum on the body as you see it today. I painted the fenders black and the hood aluminum to match the body. I had the motor taken out and completely rebuilt by a professional. I had him balance the motor so it, now, runs smoother than new.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 10:43 am:

Rob, you Canadian built Touring looks super nice. I hope I can come close to yours.
Interesting enough is that the blue/grey color on yours is fairly close to the blue grey color Ford used in the 26-27 years. Ford was more greyish but fairly close. In my opinion anyway.
Thanks for the pic!
My Touring is a straight winshield low cowl type and would look good with that combination I think.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - 05:53 pm:

I have today received permission from The Model T Register of Great Britain to use two illustrations from the book " The English Model T Ford ". I wish to acknowledge their help and would like to recommend the book to anyone who is interested in learning more about the Model T in other countries. Here is a link .
http://www.modeltregister.co.uk/modeltbook.html
The pictures they sent me are fairly large and I will have to post them on separately. Regards, John




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - 05:54 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - 05:58 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Gray on Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - 09:12 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - 09:39 pm:

What color is "Orriford Lake"? Anybody have a clue?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - 09:41 pm:

Steve - I knew Gene Salzman and his nephew.

Small world, eh?

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 01:40 am:

I think Orriford Lake would be "red" probably more leaning towards Maroon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 02:07 am:

One point more! The sedans in Australia ( probably England also) came from Canada and were imported to test the local market, they received a special reduction on duty from the Australian Govt as the duty was to deter importation of bodies so the local industry could expand. They were the only styles sold black, the local built bodies could be any color.

The colors dark blue, dark red and grey can easily be painted over black, in the case of dark blue and maroon they have to be painted black first or the color will not cover properly and requires excessive coats to get the true color, put a ground coat of black first and one or two coats of the top color produces the deep true color immediately. The light grey would easily cover the black also. This probably determined why those 3 colors were the ones available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 05:32 am:

Peter,
From what year are you referring to when you say the Sedans came in without the full duty being paid?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Thursday, June 07, 2012 - 08:50 am:

John, 1924 possibly 1923 also - when French was here he pushed hard to get the sedans as an alternate body which was resisted by the distributors. He was able to get concessions from the govt to have them bought in initially as a trial then to add to the product range when the Company started assembly in 1925.

French also had arranged that a sedan be imported for his use while he was here doing his investigations.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Friday, June 08, 2012 - 03:36 pm:

Peter, thanks for that. I guess with the proposition of Ford of Canada opening an assembly plant and a body-building plant, French will have had some considerable leverage with the Australian Government!

The question now is, how was the market for closed cars handled up to this point? Did the Aussie body-makers build them, or did they come in from Canada and the duty paid?

This subject warrants a separate thread, as it is quite important to the Aussie history.

John Stokes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, June 08, 2012 - 04:59 pm:

Before I forget -- here is a link to Andrew Brand's web site on some of the open bodied cars from Australia. He hasn't worked on it in a long time (I think 2005) -- but he has a good start for the open cars at: See http://home.vicnet.net.au/~mtfcv/ausfords.htm

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, June 08, 2012 - 05:05 pm:

From memory -- boy is that dangerous. I think I read an article about a 1928 - 1931 Model A sedan body that was produced in Australia? It was a little different from he USA and Canadian production body. And I think the article was in the "Restorer" magazine put out by the Model A Ford Club of America. My guess -- sometime in the last 4 years (that is better than the last 30 years). Anyone else remember a similar article?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Friday, June 08, 2012 - 08:36 pm:

John, The sedans came from Canada, have not seen any indication that any closed bodies were built here at that time but I bet someone did it.

Ads for the sedans appeared back into 1921.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Willard Revaz on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 05:27 pm:

I am the 3rd owner of the 1922 Coupe shown below. It was sold initially in Norwich, CT and the second owner did nothing to or with it for 10 years. When I got it, it looked exactly as it does now and I am curious about the blue/grey patina on the body. I always assumed it was a repaint, but cannot but notice how similar it is to Johns body. Did the dealership offer a two-tone paint job or am I imagining things?? I WILL keep it as is for as long as I own it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Stokes on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 05:59 pm:

Willard
Certainly the Ford dealers in other parts of the world added other colours and/or re-pained cars. This is especially true of the closed cars, done in the hope that this would make closed cars more appealing to buyers.
But it doesn't necessarily follow that that happened in the US marketplace too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 06:31 pm:

Surely there are auto museums down under with closed bodied Model T's on display with authentically painted two toned bodies. If so, I'd be interested in seeing the actual colors that were used as I have a '26 fordor I am seriously considering painting in a two toned paint combination. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 07:41 pm:

It would be interesting to see some of the pre 26-27 T's that were painted in some of the straw, or burgandy colors as Alex mentioned. I wonder if there are any survivors still around. From the description of the paint colors Alex mentioned I'll bet they were close to the colors that Ford used on the 26-27 cars and the later model A's. The blue grey color on the cars that are shown on this thread to me are the colors that were used for that time period or very close to them.
Interesting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 08:01 pm:

Hello Jim,

Surviving Closed cars here in Australia are extremely rare. Very few were imported. Our climate as you will know can be quite hot in summer, and it would seem that they weren't popular. Also adding to that was the tariff problem. I have only seen three original import Fordor Sedans in the forty-seven years I have been involved in the hobby. To my knowledge there are no surviving Two Tone Closed Cars.

Best regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 08:33 pm:

Last year I emailed Peter Kable to see if he had any information regarding Closed Model T's here in Australia. He very kindly offered to send me a copy of an old 1925 advertisement from a " Ford News " paper. " Ford News " was an in-house employee paper World wide. Peter is of the belief that this add,in the " Ford News " from August 1925 is possibly the first one printed by the newly formed Ford Motor Co. Australia. I will post the advertisement here with Peter's permission.

Best regards, John

Note the full range of the Ford line for that year. Closer observation of the Open cars will show that they are all Australian bodies, whereas the Closed cars are the Canadian imports.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 08:47 pm:

Some clearer pictures.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 08:55 pm:

The Open Cars.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob torbet on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 09:34 pm:

Thank you for all the chatter on two tone closed Model T's. I am in the process of doing my 21 Centerdoor and will now make it a two tone. It will be burgundy in the middle along with the hood. The running boards and fenders will be black. The wood around the windows has been sanded, leaving a little black, that will match the wood spokes. With the black top, I will be very proud of my car. To each there own, do what you like.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 10:45 pm:

Bob. Don't forget to send us a picture of the completed project. From what I am reading here, it looks like the color of the belt and above was black, while the color below was another color of the customer's choice.

When I do my '26 fordor, I may do the upper portion in black and below the belt in maroon with black fenders, splash shields, and radiator apron. As for the wooden spokes, should they be black or maroon? Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 07:13 am:

Looking through the French report ( this is a report sent from Australia to Canada in 1923-24 by Hubert French who was sent here to check out the distribution of Ford cars) I have misled everyone slightly ( should't go from your memory)

Ford Canada applied to the Australian tariff board for changes to the import duties giving several reasons. Ford wanted to bring in the bodies in knocked down form. Up until 1923 they had sent first center door sedans and later Fordor sedans and Coupe's fully finished from Canada. They argued that if they were assembled here it would be cheaper for them to be imported ( less cost to freight) and Australian workers would be employed to assemble them thus increasing employment. The Tariff Board dilly dallied on a ruling during the time French was in the country and he sent a letter to Canada in the end stating they should let the matter slide as he thought The Davies Bros (NSW State Ford distributors and Holdens body builders had enough influence that it would be difficult to get a result) The sedans would have dug into their De Luxe body sales which they made big profits on.

His recommendation was to dump the arrangements with distributors and for Ford to set up and control the sale of Fords in Australia.

John Page, French mentioned that he was able to get considerable orders for Ford sedans from Tarrant Motors in Victoria. The other states resisted doing so. They actually were predicting doom and gloom and wanted to reduce the 1924 orders for cars where French wanted to vastly increase them. So that probably is a reason most of the Sedans have been found in Victoria.

When Ford Australia did establish the Company here in 1925 all the previous arrangements were re negotiated. I hope that is clearer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Watson -Florence,Colorado on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 12:18 pm:

Willard,
Would you be so kind as to post some more photos of your 1922 Coupe.This was my first T and I really miss it.
-Don


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 08:07 pm:

Hello Peter,

Thank you for adding a little more to the puzzle. Interesting comments. I think you are right on the money when you say that Victoria probably sold most of the Sedans.

Peter, is all of the French Report covered in the excepts you have in Chapter 3 of the book " The History of Ford in Australia " or is there a lot more of report not in the book ?

Regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 08:07 pm:

John, I found the illustrations you posted, courtesy of Peter Kable, very interesting. The 25 tourer shown is what is known as a Dalgety body, so named because it was assembled from knock-down components supplied by Duncan Motors in the old Dalgety wool stores in Geelong. As far as I am aware, there never was a roadster built to that design, and so no pickup either. As the illustrations are drawings, perhaps intentions were not reflected in reality.

When the Ford factory got into production of the 26 models, there was a roadster body. These Ford factory bodies looked the same as their US counterparts, but still had a full wooden frame in the sub floor, where the US cars were all steel.

The last of the 27 model OPEN cars could be had in two tone paintwork, in an effort to keep sales going presumably, before the A came out. There is an original two toned roadster in Victoria, still in its original paint.

For interest.

Allan from down under


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 08:44 pm:

John,
There is a lot more depending on what you would like to know. Some direct members of the families were still alive when we published the book 30 years ago and Ford Australia insisted we leave out the critical comments of French and Brooks (his off sider) and there were a lot!!!

As a historical document of the day it has lots of interesting information including the union movement in Australia, the railway system, Govt agencies other large businesses such as Sunshine Harvesters.

I would hope at some stage the report would be made public but I was only allowed access to it on the provision it was only used to expand on Fords history in Australia for the book.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 09:02 pm:

Peter,

Thank you. I was thinking that would have been the case. I respect the arrangements you made for the book and will leave it at that.

Regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Thursday, June 21, 2012 - 09:51 pm:

Allan, Thank you also for your contribution here on this thread. You always have something interesting to add. I had some close friends who had an original Two Tone Tourer. The car had been repainted in the same colours as they found the unrestored car. Two shades of Gray. You would be familiar with the car as they attended most of the National Rallies. Sadly they have both passed away now, but the car is still in good hands. Regards, John

I have cropped a photo to show the colours.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Friday, June 29, 2012 - 10:06 pm:

For Peter Kable,

Since Peters Posting here on the 21st June I have found quite a lot of Tarrant Motors advertisements for Sedans in the Trove Archives. They range from August 1924 - May 1925.

Peter's comments ( John Page, French mentioned that he was able to get considerable orders for Ford sedans from Tarrant Motors in Victoria. The other states resisted doing so. They actually were predicting doom and gloom and wanted to reduce the 1924 orders for cars where French wanted to vastly increase them. So that probably is a reason most of the Sedans have been found in Victoria.

Here is one of the advertisements. Regards, John



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Sunday, July 22, 2012 - 10:48 pm:

I had this picture of an Australian Tudor Sedan sent to me recently and thought I would add it to this thread. The picture was published in a 1990 BENT WIRE magazine of the Model T Ford Club of Australia NSW Inc.


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