Top installation (26 Touring)

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Top installation (26 Touring)
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James R. Booth, DeRidder, LA on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 08:59 pm:

I am nearing the end of my restoration project, only the top remains. I have a new Classique top and upholstery. Upholstery was a piece of cake but the top is another story. Instructions are rather vague but Elizabeth encourages calls to her if problems are encountered. I have found a lot of details and diagrams on previous threads but all were for earlier models. My question/request: Does anyone have dummy proof instructions,diagrams or video for a 26 model touring? Pointers on dos, don't, pitfalls, cautions, etc. would also be welcome. I plan to take it slow and easy (one step at a time), One tip I already know is "don't cut anything until your sure it is right."

Many thanks in advance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 09:54 pm:

The bows should be wrapped with the material furnished for that purpose.

Follow the directions on the position of the rear bow before installing or cutting the top. This position is very critical to the fitting of the Jipsy curtain to the support of the rear bow. If it is too low or too high the angle will be incorrect. It is also important to set that bow correctly so that the top itself stretches tight on the side overhangs. There should be some webbing in the kit, and this will be installed first and will hold the top bows at the correct position while you are installing the top. It is also good to do it in the sun on a hot day so that the material will get soft and stretchable. After you get the bows positioned correctly, place the pads and then the top starting with the wind breaker flap in front. That flap should be close to the top of the windshield so that the wind will blow it against the glass and not over the top into the car.

If you need any more details, please specify just what questions you have. It is not hard to install the top, but after you trim the edges, it will be too late to make adjustments.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 09:55 pm:

Hi Jim,
I recently started a post on "installed my Cartouche Upholstery today" that got some very valuable info on installing tops. The main thing I've learned so far is to cover then position your bows firmly so they are in the right place and can't move while installing pads, straps, etc. I planned on starting today, but by the time I finished my cushions and installed my windshield and began covering my bows, my air stapler died, so I had to quit and go get another one. I'm ambitiously hoping to have mine done by Wed or Thurs of this week! Hopfully someone will chime in with some 26-specific info for you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Monday, May 28, 2012 - 11:20 pm:

I got my '26 touring top kit from Vince, the very best at the time. But he has passed away.
The instructions were pretty good and I tried to follow them the best I could but I really goofed up the top.
It is so critical where the bows are.
My rear bow is okay but the next one forward is too high and the top deck has to bend down too much to the rear bow causing the sides to be loose. They just flap all the time in the wind.
I need to get another kit and start over.
I believe I too will buy from Cartouche, I have heard nothing but good about them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Dupree on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 06:27 pm:

James

First and foremost, check the fit of your bows before you start. There are no field adjustments for the bows, like there are for the two man tops, so there are no factory recommended dimensions for the top. BUT you need to check the vertical location of the front hinge point as one of your first things. With the clamps sitting loose on top of the windshield posts, use a prop stick to insure that the front hinge on both sides is at the same height AND allows the front bow to go slightly over center. THEN modify the top to windshield post clamps as needed to allow them to fit over the post. Once that is done, then check both sides to be sure the rear bow is at the same height above the seat on both sides and sticks past the rear of the car the same amount. Keep those prop sticks in place, with the top to windshield post clamp tightened in place, until you have all of the top straps and bow pads in place.

Ever notice how a lot of late touring cars have that front bow hinge hanging way down, making it hard to get into the front seat? It shouldn't be that way, and must be corrected as one of the first things you do.

Ron Dupree


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James R. Booth, DeRidder, LA on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 07:17 pm:

Thanks for the input all. I especially liked the look of your top Norman (from profile), neatly hidden away inside it's cover. If mine turns out well I may never fold it down but on the other hand, I bought the cover for it folded down - I can hide it away forever if it turns out badly. Seriously, I find very little adjustment to be made (Windshield posts attachments and vertical position of back bow).
Today I sort of chicken out and consulted an upholsterer - two young fellows that have recently started there own upholstery business doing boats, seats, classic cars, etc. They came out and looked at the car - read the instructions, raised the top bows into position, looked at all the different pieces, etc. They assured me they can do the job and I am confident they can. The problem is they have no idea how long it will take and thus no idea what kind of a price to charge.
My Question: What would you consider to be a fair price for the job?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 08:50 pm:

James,
After getting my upholstery and top kit, I too looked all over for someone to install it. The "classic car guys" had done things like 50's cars with convertible top FRAMES--not BOWS that want to swarm all over the place. I didn't find anyone in whom I had any more confidence in than me. I dreaded it, but I'm glad I didn't give my T to someone who had never done a T (I haven't either, but, at least I care about it). I have been planning and asking questions and finally today I started and almost finished my top --except for the main piece. After the rain came through, things cooled off, so, I decided to wait till tomorrow and lay it out in the sun.

Key things I've learned are: 1. Build a scaffold along both sides and around the back so you don't have to work off ladders. 2. Get a helper, even if they can only hold things. 3.Secure your bows in the correct place (cover them first) before you start--I used 1x2x8ft nailed to the sides of my bows with a brad nailer (easy to remove), the web straps that go from the top carrier to the inside corners of the back bows, and the leather straps from the windshield to the corners of the front bow. Your car is different, but the concept is the same--use whatever you can to immobilize the bows in their correct positions. 4. When the instructions said "...don't drive the tack home yet" I used a big head trim tack I could later remove, then, when all was right to"drive them home", I used my air stapler and removed the few temporary tacks I had used. 5. Get a good thimble and better needles than I did (3 broke while sewing the pad together).

Good luck. If I run into anything unforeseen tomorrow, or the whole thing culminates in disaster, I'll let you know what went wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James R. Booth, DeRidder, LA on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 09:19 pm:

Thanks Mike. The two young men I am talking with are very interested. They have agreed to work on the car at my house and in my garage. They also already have the necessary scaffolding and equipment. I will be there during the entire installation process because, like you said, no one cares more about the final outcome than I do. Also, Elizabeth from Classique has repeatedly said to call her with any questions and I will take advantage of that offer. Many others on this forum have praised her willingness to help. Will keep you advised.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 09:56 pm:

James, since you looked at my profile, I will send you some more pictures of the top being installed and after it is finished. One thing I neglected to point out, and Ron touched on it. Measure the rear bow vertically from the rear seat on both sides. This should be equal. Do not make this measurement from the ground, because the body might be leaning to one side, and although you might make the top equal distance from the ground, it will always look crooked if you don't make that measurement from the seat. In fact the best place to measure is from the crimp in the back panel of the body, where the tack strip is bolted on so that you rule out differences in padding of the seat from one side to the other. Measure right where the sheet metal bends to go under the tack strip.
See attached pictures. Ignore the hood in the third picture. I had the lower panels on opposite sides. This was the first shot of the car after I restored it and I wanted a picture so I could send it to my insurance company so I could get the car insured, and I noticed the hood didn't fit right. I had to correct that.:-)
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 10:22 pm:

Thanks for posting those pictures Norman.
Now then see how Norman's top deck looks a little bit loose between the 2nd, 3rd and rear bow?
That is where I went wrong. Mine looks terrible.
To tighten that up the rear bow would have to go up and forward a little higher (too late now) so there would be less of a downward bend of the top deck to get to the rear bow.
When you nail it to the front and stretch it straight back it will be tight all over until you lower it to the rear bow, then the sides loosen.
If the two center bows could be lowered some then the top deck could be pulled back and renailed to the rear bow without moving it forward.
Norman's will eventually tighten up some on the sides.
He did a nice job.
I did mine several years ago and it just flaps in the breeze. Looks bad enough so I have lost interest in the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 11:35 pm:

James, you asked how much you could expect to be charged.
When I drove my '19 to my upholsterer he started out with the old top on. Once the top was off I had him Quik-Poly all the wood he could see.
I bought a Cartouche top kit for him to install for me.
Thanks to forum members I printed a drawing with a bunch of measurements as well as photos for him to go by.
When he was done it cost me $1000 green and it was worth every cent.
The reason I took it to HIM in the first place is he knows what he's doing and I wanted a good job done which is what I got....... :-)

touring top


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Haynes on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 02:45 pm:

I am also nearing the completion of a 1926 Touring and I also am in the process of putting on the top. The bows are done, the top straps and pads are in place. The difficulty I am having now is finding the correct fasteners for the 3 points on each side of the back curtain attaches to the rear bow the is connected to the rear of the body attached with the prop nut. I have the correct female fasteners in the bow but I am unable to find the male fasteners that attached to the top material. Does any one have 6 of the SNAP fasteners they are willing to sell? The ones that came with the top kit are different and since I already have the originals in the bow I really don't want to change. I have checked all of the suppliers of which I can think. Any help would be appreciated!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 07:22 pm:

John:

Langs lists them as snap-m. Mac's lists them as UF-40. Did you check with those vendors? Mac's price is $14.00 each. Perhaps these fasteners were orginally made by Anzo.

One thing I want to caution you about, does the fastener in your rear top bow (female part with the spring loaded disk) have a protrusion of about 1/8" when mounted into the rear bow? The rear side curtain needs to sandwich between the top material and rear bow. Perhaps this 1/8" protrusion allows this. I saw an original 1926 touring about a week ago that had the rear bow fasteners with these protrusions. The current ones I see on the market do not have this protrusion (that is the female fasteners mounted in the rear bow, three on each side, on the inside surface of the bow).

If you know where I could purchase some female fasteners(with the protrusion of about 1/8" when mounted to the rear bow) please let me know!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Haynes on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:17 pm:

Arnie, Lang's is out of stock. I will check with Mac's. You are correct. The new female fasteners do not have the extra height as the original ones did. Thanks for the info! I will keep you posted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dena & Deennis Gorder on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:29 pm:

I am also installing a new top on my 26 touring. The question I have is should the second bow from the front rest on the side bows or should it be raised slightly? These are aftermarket bows.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Draude on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 11:34 pm:

I installed a Classique top and am also very satisfied with it. I followed the directions as closely as I could. They could be more precise, but by re reading, they did make sense. Start by straightening your bows and making them as symetrical as possible, as mine were not that precise- imagine that. I found with the back bow vertical from the body as instructed, the rest pretty much had only one place to go. For some photos of Elizabeth installing a top, try this site:
http://www.irishmodeltclub.ie/photographs/2011/weekendupholsterytrainingcourse/

Good luck,
Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Haynes on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 10:37 am:

Dena & Deennis,
I have original top bows and in answer to your question, the second bow from the front, mine is 4 inched above the pivot point where the front bow attaches to the iron. The 4 inches is to the bottom of the second bow. Hope that helps! I am still looking for the correct fasteners, I have found 1 so far. How are you intending to attache the rear curtain to the side of the bows?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 09:18 pm:

John:

Could you post a picture of the correct fastener for the rear curtain. I assume that it is the female one with the protrusion.

Dan has already posted a photo on another topic, but perhaps your picture here will give other people an idea of what to look for. I have a friend that has the incorrect fasteners, and as a result he had to remove the three rings on each side curtain so he could squeeze the side curtains between the top material and rear bow.

Thanks,

Arnie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Haynes on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 01:51 pm:

Arnie,
Attached are 3 photos of the fastener. The first one is the outside of the male and the second is the inside of the male. The third is the original female one with the protrusion. I am still looking for 3 of the male fasteners. Male fastener facing out side.Male fastener facing insideOriginal female with protrusion , mounted in bow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 10:42 pm:

John:

Thanks for posting the pictures.

Some have said that restorationspecialities.com may have some. I looked on pages 175(body socket) page 176 Anzo socket and page 178 (stud for auto tops) but I think perhaps they are not identical to the fasteners required.

The body socket to me does not have the protrusion as shown in your picture. What do you think?

I thought I would let you know in case I am mistaken, and they are what you need.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 01:07 pm:

Lots of great info above but too much to read it all, (at work). So, if it hasn't been mentioned already...

1. Lots of people like to use staples. That can be fine. However, the second rule of top installation is, you will have to constantly adjust and do small re-fits to get the top to stretch right, with no ripples. Tacks are much easier to pull out than staples for that purpose, especially if you leave the head standing a bit high. At the very least, I would get the top fastened primarily with tacks until you're satisfied with the fit, then go with staples for rest.

2. First rule of top installation is to work from the center line of the car. Measure the width of the front & rear top bow and put a chalk mark on the center. You have now established the center line of the car. Also put chalk marks on your top, at its center points. Align the centers as you install and tack/staple from the center, outward, (i.e. from center to left & center to right), alternating from side to side so as not to create a "pull" that will skew the top to one side or the other.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Haynes on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 03:03 pm:

Arnie:
I have not been able to find the documents to which you reference in regard to the proper female fasteners. I did find some of the male fasteners from a nice retired couple in CA. by the name of Fred & Muriel Temp. The have some of the original male fasteners for sale if you are interested. I can give you their contact info if you give me your email. I have not found a correct female fastener for sale...I have some old ones still in the bows I will try to remove and put in the bows I am using.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Sunday, June 10, 2012 - 09:22 pm:

John:

My e-mail is arniejoh AT yahoo.com. Please change the AT to @ and do not use any spaces.

Restoration specialities sent me an e-mail stating they currently do not have the female fastener.

Thanks,

Arnie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 09:32 pm:

bump


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