Coil core construction

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Coil core construction
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 04:14 am:

Does anyone know when Ford made coils with laminated cores as opposed to the more typical "bundle of wires" construction?

"Bundle of wires"

1

Laminated core

2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:22 am:

Nobody?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:26 am:

I'm just going from memory, but I was thinking Fords had the wires and the stack of flat bars were in some of the aftermarket coils. I could certainly be wrong, though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 12:26 pm:

No idea about the info you asked but wondering if there is a performance difference or was it just for the sake of manufacturing ease/cost savings?

Was it only ford made coils, or did other suppliers make some like this too?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 03:09 pm:

Tom-
I believe those are aftermarket. I've never seen flat bar packed in a hexagon. Is there any name on it? Or name on the original points?

I think Ford and "original" KW only used the "bundle of wires" type.

I have seen some late production aftermarket coils ('50's-'70's) that use the flat bars, but they are stacked in a square, not hexagon.

: ^ )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 03:24 pm:

Tom,

I seem to remember that ford used "Sweedish Soft Iron" for the core wires. I too think that the flat bars are an aftermarket short cut.

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 03:31 pm:

This is a Ford coil. Big old Ford script right on the side. I have seen aftermarket coils made in the 50's with laminated cores, and the new Bittner ones are made with a variation on the lamination theme.

I have been testing the performance of various coils and will report soon on my findings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 04:29 pm:

I have never seen a Ford coil with laminations, but have seen many post-era KW coils with them.

However, one (almost) never knows. Ford drawings and releases always specify the primary wire to be silk wrapped, never enameled, but I have seen Ford coils with enameled wire.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 08:28 pm:

Here is a picture of the side of the coil, in case you didn't believe me.

Looks factory to me.

1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:12 pm:

Tom
You once told me you knew more about the Model T coil than anyone else?
If you did your homework you would know the coil in your photo is of 1919-1923 vintage.
Here is my view of this:
Soon after Ford bought out minority stockholders in 1919 they insisted Ford script is included on all major parts.
Just because a part has Ford script does not mean it was made in the Ford factory.
Early in this period Ford had unsuccessfully tried the Wheat gluten coil and was transitioning to the all wood cased coil and they needed coils to support vehicle production.
You see very few of the coils depicted in your photo. I have only seen three or four in the thousands of coil in my shop.
To meet production requirements I believe Ford had an outside supplier that used the different magnetic core components and met the receiving inspection requirement. My reason for this is if you completely disassemble the coil you will find production assembly methods entirely different from Ford or KW.
I will leave it to you since you are the expert. But, in my opinion this is just another outside supplier's coil with the required Ford script.
As regards your Model T coil performance reports. There are only four material criteria:
Applied voltage
Ratio of windings and coil inductance.
Coil “Q”
Point setting.
Report against this criteria. Anything else is nonsense.
Ron the Coilman


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 02:11 am:

Ron, what I said was that I knew more about the T ignition system. This was said during a moment of frustration when I felt that you were being condescending to me. I shouldn't have said it, but I stand by what I said. I have studied the T ignition system and believe that I know things about it that you or John Regan or anyone else on the planet probably isn't aware of. Not that you or John Regan or anyone else couldn't learn, you just haven't looked into it. I'm not saying that I'm smarter than you or John Regan or anyone else, I'm just saying that I believe that I know things that you don't. For instance, have you ever done a Fourier analysis of a magneto waveform?

I don't think that I know more about T coils than you. I don't think that I know more about electronics than John Regan, for whom I have considerable respect, by the way.

Ron said:"If you did your homework you would know the coil in your photo is of 1919-1923 vintage."

Yes, I knew that. You posted that information on this forum just recently.

Ron said: "To meet production requirements I believe Ford had an outside supplier that used the different magnetic core components and met the receiving inspection requirement. "

Could be, but I'd like to know facts without speculation.

Ron said:"I will leave it to you since you are the expert."

I have no idea why you are so nasty to me. I can't help it if I like myself. By the way, most people like me too.

Ron said:"As regards your Model T coil performance reports. There are only four material criteria:
Applied voltage
Ratio of windings and coil inductance.
Coil “Q”
Point setting. "

I'm only interested in the first three.

Ron, thanks for chiming in. I really don't want to be your enemy, but I will not exhibit false humility. My hubris may annoy you, but I know what I know and won't pretend I don't. I also don't pretend to know what I don't know.

Folks, I'm sorry to take this public, but I have sent many private messages to Ron that have been ignored. This forum seems to be the only way that I can communicate with him.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 09:45 am:

Thank you for reminding us all how wonderful you are.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 10:28 am:

Boy, some people are full of themselves - guys this is a perfect example of why some of the newer learners like myself are getting very gun shy about asking questions. We love the good technical answers, but I for one dont like the "Im the one - I know more than anyone else" attitude. I bet the combined knowledge about ford coils here is so immense but how embarrasing for two men to be so utterly childish. Im glad I didnt ask the original question. Please dont either one of you go off on me, Im just here to have fun.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Robison on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 11:34 am:

Ron-"To meet production requirements I believe Ford had an outside supplier that used the different magnetic core components and met the receiving inspection requirement."

Tom- "I'd like to know facts without speculation."

I know Ford had outside suppliers for many parts. ex. Dodge Brothers front axles- It seams to me in most cases these suppliers stamped/printed their names on the parts they made. Seems a bit strange that if it was an outside supplier producing coils they wouldn't be claiming credit for the product they produced.

Tom's question is a valid question. Obviously this information isn't currently published. With that said; where should he go to collect the knowledge he is seeking?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 07:30 pm:

Tom - I re-read this and I am very interested in your question, I have to defend you here, sorry you were not out of line. I will pm you - I would like to discuss coils with you! you seem to be really up on the technical data, and Im an old radio repairman, so Im interested in fixing some of the sixty or so coils I have laying around.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erich Bruckner, Vancouver, WA on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 07:36 pm:

So, would there be any performance difference between the two styles?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 01:52 am:

Erich, I am working on quantifying that.

Stay tuned!


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