Re 1909 re-inacment race T #451

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Re 1909 re-inacment race T #451
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 07:14 am:

I always believed it was 1909 production T's that were used in the 1909 race across America in 1909.
Looking back to the re-inacment run in 1957 why was such a rare Pre-production T #451 used . And what happened to after the run?.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 07:56 am:

That must have been hard on the ears with those stubby pipes right in front of you!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 09:48 am:

Maybe, as #451 would have been a two lever, and you can see only one lever in the photo. Unless it was modified,

Blew up the photo to 400x on the screen and sure enough looks like a water pump engine, you can see the odd water neck outlet of those early T's and the stack for the oil filler on the left front of the motor. The hogshead seems to have a taper cover rather than the small square correct one.

That is interesting!

The actual Ford racers were built in either April or May of 1909 to compete in the June race, Henry announced on April 11 he would enter two new Model T Fords to compete.


View of motor from article on the recreated racer


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 07:00 pm:

Gents

#451 also is listed and photgraphed as a Tourer in one of the Harrah Collection books. It is possible the engine was pulled out of #2 racer to restore the tourer? Does anyone know the history?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Scott Owens on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 07:04 pm:

I see that they went back to a water pump motor. Did Henry say that a water pump will make your motor run stronger and longer? Just looking to clear things up,
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 07:05 pm:

here are some ex Harrah Collection shots






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 08:33 pm:

The 1953 replica was in Sacto Museum, last time I was there, back in '08. You could ask them the engine s/n.



http://calautomuseum.org/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 09:31 pm:

The 1950's Version of #2 Racer is listed as Eng # 2638. Is this the same car or engine replant or something made up by ford for the aniversery?




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 10:26 pm:

Actually a guy in our club has a replica of those cars that Ed Archer had years ago.
He runs it with those stubby exhaust pipes and it is not really that loud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 12:19 am:

All very confusing. -My original posting showing the car for the re-inacment shows a preproduction engine# 451 and a pre-production radiator fitted.

yet the listed stories seem to indicate that this car went to the ford museum and then sold on a couple of times to now have a production engine #2638 fitted together with a production model radiator .
WHAT HAPPENED ALONG THE WAY ?
And were did engine #451 end up.?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 07:02 am:

#451 engine is in the 1909 Touring in the collection of National Auto Museum in Reno Nevada.

The reproduction racer was built by Bill Stroppe of Long Beach, CA for the 1959 event.

No telling when the swap was made but obviously it did. Bill Harrah probably needed a correct engine for the nice red touring would be my guess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darel J. Leipold on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 11:38 am:

The replica # 2 was at the Waterloo, Iowa meet in the mid 1950s. Les Henry brought it from the Ford Museum. It was parked next to my 1910 Touring. I understood at that time it was a replica.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 05:50 pm:

Here's a 1959 article on the #2 racer replica built by Bill Stroppe of Long Beach, California:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 06:50 pm:

Still just as confused---Did the original car have engine #2638 engine ?.

If not what is this car that keeps being sold on


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 01:06 am:

I believe there are at least two good repops of car number two. One being the Bill Stroppe/Leslie Henry car. There is at least one repop of car number one. It is owned by a member of the Santa Clara Valley Model T Ford Club. It was a very nice car. I understand that it has been redone since I saw it about 30 years ago and is even better now. There is also someone selling bodies like that on eBad. Their seat is totally wrong, but otherwise they don't look too bad.
I wonder how many copies of those cars are around? Good ones? Bad ones?

Last year (I think?) an old photo was posted here of a very similar car. Someone identified it as one of several having been built by a Ford dealer back in the day. If I recall correctly, it was from the Pacific Northwest.

I would like to hear more about the copies, both from the days and current.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 01:23 am:

That 1959 'reenactment' #2 was at the Ford Celebration in Dearborn 2003.

The engine is an early open valve at that time, no water pump, didn't note the serial number.




Milt Roorda has a replica, and his is now on display at the MTFCA Museum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Trevan - Australia on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 04:22 am:

Thanks Wayne--I seems that there no remains of the original cars .
I thought at least the FORD MUSEUM car was one of the original car
but i was tricked again.
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR INPUT.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Williams on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 05:10 am:

Wayne,

Who in the SCVMTFC owns the car? I know Ed Archer ran the Baja 1000 years ago with one. Are you going to make it to the endurance run next weekend?

Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 04:52 pm:

Tim,
Ed Archer and his buddy Larry Streeter attempted the Baja 1000 twice in that car. The first time, a rebuilt wheel with all good tight new spokes collapsed after 110 miles.
For the second effort, I don't recall now, whether original spokes were used, or a very special order of higher grade hickory was made. I will have to ask Ed to refresh my memory. They pushed the car hard trying to keep within the official finishing time. In doing so, they broke almost everything else, but the wheels made it. They were just short of finishing when a broken spindle arm, no spare, and no one nearby that could weld it, put them out. They were on track for an "on time" finish.

Tim, I don't, as a general rule, in an open forum divulge names without permission of some sort. Will send you a P M.

Will I make the run this year? still too close to call. A tough year left me with very little time to work on the car at all for ten months. Once again, I am trying to get it all done in the few weeks before the run. My new (80 yr old) brakes are finally on the car. The transmission is apart. I have only a few good days left to work on it. To top it off, my son/copilot may have a conflict of schedule. I may need a last minute replacement. I won't know for a couple days yet. (Anyone here want to consider it?)
If you see me there, ask, and I will tell you what became of the Baja 1000 broken frame.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 09:45 am:

The intake manifold on the number 2 car looks as if it is made of brass. Would it be brass plated or did someone have one cast in brass?

Herb


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