My journey documenting the differences in the Ton Trucks during their production from 1918 through 1927 has lead me somewhere I never expected . I always heard people say that the Commercial Ford Chassis were all the same. I have even heard said that the Commercial Fords had the same frame as the Cars. Well we know that the Commercial Frames and the Car frames are not even close to the same but did you know that the Ton Trucks had at least 4 versions during their production. I am still working on the 24-25 version and need some help.
Somewhere during 1925 Ford changed the Body mounting brackets and their location from a single bolt front version to a four bolt version. I'm thinking with the information I have, that this occurred either in May or August of 25.
This newest mount might have been only used on the Steel Cabs but I'm not sure about that.
Do any of you TT owners have a 1925 frame with the four hole front body mount?
Fred,
I don't have the answer for you, my TT is an '18 I think. But I'm very interested in what you're doing. I always thought the only chassis change was when the longer rear cross member was introduced. I didn't realize there are others.
Be sure to let us know all you learn!!
I have a summer '24 TT and will check it when we
get back home next week. We're traveling now.
Keith
Probably no help at all are these on a 1924 (8-31-23 engine).
Cab bracket.
Bed bracket.
I forgot to mention that the first photo is from a 26 Steel Cab TT front mount.
Steve, that's another new one to me. I have not seen your mount before.
Is your last picture of the rear cab mount on a 23?
Here is what the 26 right rear looks like. Notice the original rivet holding the cab on.
The second picture is of the bracket that's farther back. I didn't measure. I just assumed it was for the bed.
Steve, If I recall correctly, on the pre factory cab TT's that rear mount is for the cab. There were no factory bed mounts on the frame except for the holes in the rear crossmember. The earlier rear mounts are like the front cab mounts. My '23 TT frame has all of the mounts like your front one. All of this is from memory, so subject to change!
Fred, I don't have one of the later style frames like you show, but I have seen them. Dave
My '18 is as David describes. The only factory bed mounts are the holes in the rear crossmember. From what I've seen typically a wood beam is installed on the top of the crossmember and then forward toed toward the center a little to rest on top of the chassis rail. The bed rests on top of the two beams, which is bolted to the crossmember and clamped to the chassis rail. At least that's how mine is.
My 25 Steel cab TT has the double holes--front for mounting the rear of the cab, rear for mounting the front of the stake bed.
Fred,
Just being picky here, but watch your terminology. You state that the commercial chassis is not the same as the car chassis, but that is incorrect. You are correct that the truck chassis is not the same as the car chassis, but the truck chassis is not the commercial chassis - it's the truck chassis (at least I think so - unless they referred to both as the commercial chassis).
The commercial chassis was the striped down version of the car chassis (without a body). I do not have the complete parts list for it, but I believe it was the car frame, engine, front and rear axles, gas tank, firewall, steering column, radiator, hood and front fenders. The portion of the parts list I do have shows it using the 8-leaf car rear spring assembly, the car rear perch and shackles. I don't see anywhere a TT-XXXX part number which indicates the ton truck parts.
Also, for cost accounting purposes, the 24-25 Coupe uses the commercial chassis. In other words to calculate the cost of the Coupe, they started with the cost of the commercial chassis, removed those parts which were not used on the Coupe, then added those parts that were special to the Coupe. Obviously, the Coupe is not built on the truck chassis.
Dave S.
Hi Dave, the Commercial Chassis is the Truck Chassis also known as the Ton Trucks at least that's the way Ford calls it. You were right about the car chassis being used for commercial applications. The chassis that were used previous to 1918 were the same chassis used under all of the cars but these were not the Commercial Ford Truck chassis.
Ford lists the plain car chassis as just that "Chassis" and the truck chassis as "Truck Chassis". In 1925 Ford started another line called Pickup. This was actually a Runabout that at first the dealers built by changing the back end to a pick-up box.
Although the car chassis was used for commercial purposes it was not specifically designed for the Business community as the Ton Truck was. The car chassis was advertized as a Business Utility [Vehicle] and one advertisement I have shows it as a Commercial Car.
Ford's first Commercial Truck was released in 1918 and ran until 1927 with a 124" long wheelbase, 23" wide with a height of 5".
The Coupes had 100" WB and was 23" wide.
My parts books show the original part numbers on the left hand side and the model on the right, in this case it shows the model as "TT".
My books also show the frame part number for your 25 as being #2850 and factory number 2916AR (1909-1925).
The frame on the Commercial trucks is #1119 or factory number 300 (1918-1927). My book show these frames as specifically for the "TT".
The word "Commercial Fords" was also used as the title in the 75th anniversary Ford books by Lorin
Sorenson. He never listed the Car chassis as being part of the Commercial Fords in this book.
Did a miss something?
Thanks Dave.
FWIW, My aftermarket-bodied Pickup (Hercules body) apparently was put on a "Chassis" from the outset. The chassis has the 8-leaf rear spring and all the attributes of an original non-starter setup.
It has since been "starterized" but still carries its 1921 engine number which is on the title and the engine.
Fred,
I have to disagree. I looked at the Cost Accounting Records again. This is from the Feb. 1925 Book.
Unfortunately, due to the way the page in the book was photo copied, the first column containing the part numbers on this first section are not readable. The quantity, part name and costs are readable.
Coupe Assembly Dem. Wheels with starter
1 Commercial Chassis Assy. Start. & Dem. Wheels less Instr. Bd.
1 Coupe Body Assy.
2 Rear Fender Assy.
Plus a bunch of other parts relating to the electric tail light and the steering column support.
Commercial Chassis Parts without Starter with Dem. wheels
Commercial Chassis with Starter and Dem. Wheels as listed
Less parts detailed below:
Dash Parts (Starter Type)
Comm. Chassis parts to be deducted for Model T w/o starter
Instrument Board Parts (Comm. and Truck with Starter)
8786-C 1 Electric Tail Lamp & Bracket Assy.
Plus parts detailed below:
Dash Parts (Without Starter)
Instrument Board Parts (Comm. & Truck w/o Starter)
Commercial Chassis Parts with Starter & Clincher wheels
Commercial Chassis Assy. with Start. & Dem. Wheels as Listed:
Less parts detailed below:
B-2815-B 2 Rear Wheel
8774 5 Demountable Rim
8834 16 Demountable Rim Clamp Nut
8832 16 Demountable Rim Clamp Bolt
Plus parts detailed below:
B-2815-A 2 Rear Wheels
Would anyone be interested in a booklet showing the different frames for the TT according to the year that they were produced. There were several years that nothing changed and in other years the frame started out as one style and finished as another. If you are interested please send me a Private Message and let me know.
Also if any of you can find me a Ford Drawing of the 1924 and 1925 Commercial Truck frame drawings I will put together a free copy of this for you. It has taken several years research using the Ford archives and private collections for this and I think it will be a great reference for the TT owner..
Fred Miller
Fred,
My Jun 25 steel cab, stake bed TT has mounts just like you show above. I sent you a PM telling you before I opened the Forum tonight.
Fred - I have a '24 TT C Cab, engine built on August 4, 1924. The rear cab mount has 3 rivits to the frame and one hole to mount the back of the cab, just like the second picture that Steve posted above.
Yes, I would be very interested in a booklet describing the different TT frames and any other information on TT's.
Thanks, Keith
The four hole bracket came out in 1925 when the enclosed cab became available. It was possible to fit either the C-cab or the closed cab on the chassis using one hole or the other on the brackets.
This is interesting Eric. I thought this might be the case but that still leaves several other questions:
1) What month did this change happen as the Enclosed Cab first sold in May 1925 3 months before the end of the model year?
2) Did the 1925 Open Cabs first start with this same newer frame style in Aug 1924?
Maybe someone that has a 1925 C-cab that can help answer this . Fred
The body is gone, but this front cab mount is on a frame with a 1927 engine, which appears to be original and equally rusty.
I am working on a 1926 (or so) TT C cab with platform stake body. This is how it was when I bought it, so it is clearly not an unmolested example:
Some features include the two rivet, clipped corner data/patent plate on the firewall, 5-1 steering ratio with the square-end steering column, 5-rib firewall with coil box mounted on the firewall, four-rivet hand lever quadrant. It had a 1923 engine block, but a 4-dip pan with later style hogshead that bolts to the back of the block (well, it did before they put in the ’23 block). No frame number has been found yet.
For what it is worth, here are some pictures of the cab and body mounting brackets on the frame:
cab still in place:
underside of front cab bracket:
back of cab, front of bed bracket:
back of frame mounting
I hope this helps.
Joe
Go to this tread for body bracket info
Mark
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/294444.html?1339215516