Ways to run a dual spark plug T

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Ways to run a dual spark plug T
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 09:38 pm:

I was thinking about ways to run a BB Rajo cylinder head (2 spark plugs). A concept crossed my mind; It is possible to fire two spark plugs from a coil if you connect each plug to a separate end of the high tension winding. This was done on early Harley Davidson motorcycles (and probably others) as well as on 2 cylinder Onan engines (including current production I believe).
Some possibilities to consider;
1. Do some "surgery" on a T buzz coil and connect the "other" end of the high tension winding to a new "button" and add 4 new contacts to the coil box in the appropriate location.
2. Do the same "surgery" only fire the coils with a E-Timer.
3. Buy 4 of a Onan or Harley coil and fire with a E-timer.
4. I have a original KW timer elevator. It is a very sophisticated unit incorporating a condenser across a set of points that does the actual "making and breaking" and the sliding brush only selects the appropriate coil to fire.
Anyway considering how rare a dual distributor (or high tension magneto) unit is for a suitable fit for a T I think this might have possibilities.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 09:41 pm:

The only reason I can see for doing this is to get more power. Would it not be easier to drop a small block chevy engine into a T than go to all that trouble?
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 09:57 pm:

Drop a Mitsubishi distributor from a early 80's Z car into a Bosch front plate - that is what's firing all 8 of my plugs in my BB.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jack daron-Brownsburg,In. on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 10:19 pm:

Les,the electricity will take the path of least resistance. It would be very difficult to match two sparks from same coil. OTH,Steve's suggestion sounds good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 08:54 am:

Gustaf
Several versions of dual plug heads exist for the T engine. The BB is only one of them.
Steve
Interesting idea,
Jack
The trick is that the opposite ends of the high voltage winding are connected to each spark plug. So both plugs have to fire to complete the circuit. I agree that if both plugs were wired to the same connection only the "easiest" one would fire.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 09:12 am:

Install two coil boxes. Run one set of coils on MAG, the other on battery. Both can run from the same Ford roller timer supplying ground at the same time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 09:48 am:

Royce,

That's the most interesting idea yet!!

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:20 am:

Hmm, clever idea, Royce, but that would just be "Ford, Steady by Jerks Ignition," doubled. For high CR and high RPM, you need something better than a roller timer, which would be a single point failure item, anyhow.

Dual high tension magnetos or one mag and one disturbutor would be ideal.

A HT mag and a set of buzz coils like the Model K would be preferable to dual sets of buzz coils.

What did they use back in the era?

Les, I was thinking you can't fire two plugs from the same coil, but now thinking a bit more, I see your thinking, and you could do it with a modern coil that uses the waste spark, such as the Ford Windstar. Being a six, the Windstar has 3 coils in one brick, so there must be a similar coil pack for a V8.

A timer, preferably one with low dwell, would fire a V8 coil pack. You would need 12V, as each plug will be getting only half the voltage.

You could reverse coil pack polarity every year, and the plugs would last nearly forever.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:33 am:

Back in the day, one would run a Bosch ZR-4 twin.
Quite pricey today and rather scarce. Stutz also had a 8 plug ignition with two distributor bodies on a common shaft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:36 am:

Just checked RockAuto.com and didn't immediately trip onto a Ford V8 with coil pack, but here's for the 2002 Escort:

STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part# FD487T . T-Series . (!!!) . . . $26.89

You would use two of them, hidden in one or two coil boxes.

I doubt if T buzz coils would be able to jump two spark plug gaps, especially with high compression.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Gruber- Spanaway, Wash. on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:44 am:

Small airplane engines run two mags firing two plugs.
One fires a couple or three degrees before the other and it definitely makes more power on both than one mag.
Might be worth messing with.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:45 am:

Expanding on Royce's idea, run a distributor or timer off of the timer cover and a high tension magneto off of the generator spot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:57 am:

I know very little about the BB Rajo set up. Is the 2 plug arrangement meant to fire both plugs simultaneously as a performance enhancement? I wondered if it was like other 2 plug arrangements and meant to allow 2 separate ignition sources with the idea being to have a back up system to prevent dropping out of the race if you had a coil failure since you could simply flip on the other system. The only experience I have had was with a KNOX which had 4 cylinders and 8 plugs. One set of plugs was powered by a buzz coil system while the other set was powered from a High Tension magneto. The engine actually ran much smoother on coils but I think it was because the magneto linkage would not allow the spark to be advanced beyond 20 degrees by design while the timer linkage for the coils would pretty much allow any setting you wanted and then more than 45 degrees of advance from there. The wiring allowed both systems to be operating at the same time but that produced nothing from what we could tell and I think that was mainly because the magneto was sparking well after the coil box had already fired. Just wondering.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. J. "Art" Bell on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 11:15 am:

And just for comparison, a Ford 5.4 V8 Coil On Plug (with a spark plug inserted)
Cost $92.Can. a few years ago when I replaced this one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 11:33 am:

If you want to run stock coils you would need two coil boxes (8 coils). The way to wire it would be tie the power wires together for both boxes. Wire the ground points from one coil box to the other so both are grounded at the same time by the timer. You now have eight plug wires coming off the coil box (each off of its own secondary) that will fire in matching pairs.

The mag puts out plenty to fire in pairs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Harper - Keene, NH on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 11:56 am:

Hi Les,

I had a 1984 Nissan pickup with a four cylinder engine which had eight spark plugs. There were two sets of points in the distributor as I recall, one for intake side and the other for the exhaust side. I don't remember any of the point setting or timing details.

A fellow in the next town has an eight plug OHV head (don't remember the brand) and his car has this type of distributor.

Good luck with your project. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 12:07 pm:

GM 3.8 Coil Pack 2008 Grand Prix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 12:52 pm:

Steve Tomaso -

Do you recall what Ron Kipling used on his red #5 car? It would run on either or both sets of plugs and ran distinctly stronger when both were firing.

Walt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 01:11 pm:

Oh, Art, you would have to bring up that miserable 5.4 with aluminum head that blows out sparkplugs.

#5 blew out on our small Co. 1997 E350 some months back. I went to put in a helicoil kit, and found that had already been done, so wouldn't work again. That called for a Model T fix.

I drilled and tapped the hole for 1/2 inch pipe thread, and used an aftermarket Model T 1/2 inch pipe to 14mm adapter. So far, it's holding...

The blowout broke the mounting flange off the coil-on-plug, so I JB welded it back on, and that's holding, too.

Other than the $50 for a helicoil kit I wasted, it was a pretty cheap fix, but laborious. It sure beat replacing the head in a van.

BTW, some light aircraft engines may stagger the spark timing, but neither my O-200 Continental nor O-335 Franklins staggered the spark. Dual spark made a big difference, especially in the Franklins, while it's almost barely noticeable in some small opposed Lycomings. It depends on the layout of the head.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 02:05 pm:

I''m still waiting to see a photo/description of an original, era appropriate, 8 plug distributor/magneto attachment for a T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 02:10 pm:

I had the # 5 in the shop last fall to get it running for the new owner. Ron liked to run the Stutz set-ups but I'm not positive that's was what was on that car. I don't recall seeing the "twin" coils. I took photos - now, if I can find the engine compartment pics.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:45 pm:

I still like my idea of bringing out the other end of the high tension side of a T coil to another "button" on it. On magneto I figure it will have decent voltage to fire both plugs at the same time
Of course any coil that fires a "waste spark" on a second plug works "like the Harley or Onan"!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 11:14 pm:

You can try this first, Les:

Open the gap to .060 on the plugs in your driver, and see if it still performs ok. That's what you would have using both ends of a T coil.

Modren Ford plugs are gapped to .050+ from the factory, and often get to over .120 before misfiring. I've learned that over .100 will cause the coil pack to fail eventually.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 11:41 pm:

On my pops 2cyl 1910 buick we ran into some ignition problems. 1910 2cyl Buick coils send fire to the cyls both during the exhaust and compression cycle. Our old coil was shot. We tried a T coil and could get two plugs to fire but only for 3 or 4 time before one of them would become closer together than the other. Our solution was to use a H-D coil. I think you are on the right track with that solution. Good luck! and let us know what you end up doing. I currently have a buddy thats having problems with a dual ignition system on a 14 Cadillac so its a common problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach & Big Bear on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 06:40 am:

The NAP-Z distributor from a Nissan pickup truck dated in the mid 80's works very well and has been used many times. Humble Howard Genrich has been running one for over 25 years.

Another one is to get a period correct dual distributor and run it. I have one of those on my SR Frontenac. They go for about $2200 or so on a good day. The BBR's originally ran twin spark accessory Bosh Magnetos , or, one side on the buzz coils and the other side on a distributor.

Any V8 distributor can be made to fit the front of a T engine. But, and it's a big but, you have to make a twin rotor so that it will fire both plugs. I have one on one of those on my cross flow go fast twin spark Joe Gemsa engines.


Nathan, We had a 1913 Cadillac with twin distributors and wired it to run both of them at once and it did improve performance. A Bosch 007 drops right in and solved our DELCO problems. You can't get distributor caps for them. When flying an airplane you get another 100 r.p.m. when you switch over to both magnetos.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Cassara Long Island, NY on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 06:06 am:

Could a second magneto pick-up be installed and utilized to run a second set of coils?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Cassara Long Island, NY on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 06:17 am:

Just did a little research... Each pick-up would have to be wired to every other winding creating two isolated magnetos. (Each with 1/2 of the original windings) Ideas/Thoughts ??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andy Clary on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 10:11 am:

The Nissan NAPZ pickup engine of the early 80's had a dual spark distributor, You can usually find one at pick and pull. Easy to extend shaft and install in a bosch plate. Exhaust side was a few degrees retarded from intake side for emissions. Easy install and reliable.

Andy


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