Engine casting date question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Engine casting date question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 11:22 pm:

What does the R stand for? Thanks James


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 11:39 pm:

Can't make out the date but looks like all '2'? plus the 'R'.

I don't know, could just be a mold box reference as part of the tag...but if someone doesn't have a better answer or can not confirm that, you may want to see when Rouge started molding and pouring, may just fit......

Just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Tuesday, May 29, 2012 - 11:49 pm:

It reads 2 R 22 22. So I figured it means Feb,22 1922, I just didn't know what the R was for. It is a one piece spindle car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 12:28 am:

FebRuary 2, 1922

: ^ J

Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 12:35 am:

I'd be interested to know the serial number. Many times the engine assembly date is much later than the casting date. I have one block with a casting date of May 15, 1915 and a serial number of June 26, 1916. My June 27, 1915 engine has a casting date of 5-29-14. Some have theorized that Ford customarily "aged" blocks before using them. Bruce thought this theory was bogus, and so do I. Given the rate of production, that would have meant hundreds of thousands of blocks piled up waiting for use. I figure the casting date must be when the mold was made, not when the block was cast.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 01:46 am:

Steve,

Just to add to your thought. Shed some further light.

Conventional foundry practice has always been a date tag 'as poured' for lots of other reasons other than a gentle reminder, QC was not only looking for sisters when poop happened, they wanted to correlate furnace temps used that day, humidity and outside temp as part of root cause). A by-product sometimes has been a 'reverse' boss number (not seen in Fords) in conventional foundry practice to show the 'age' of the pattern and it was not a tag...it was beat into the wood or metal patterns with a form. Ford did not have to follow conventional practice of course, Fordism allowed him to do what he wanted. So yes, I have not a clue what he really did.

As far as advanced pouring for use later. when cast iron is poured, it shrinks after filling the mold. Sure the volume gets smaller, maybe only 1.5%, but what also happens is the cast iron skin now starts to act as a girdle with lots of stress build up both in it and beneath it. Designers learned how to use this in the piston area to give them stronger metal and wear resistance, but another problem for the rest of the engine happens after you cut the skin off if the casting is too 'green'...you machine flat,can even cool it while cutting, and tomorrow a funny thing happens with the new metal surface...it isn't flat anymore! Figure out how to machine a green casting and keep it flat, new problem bites you in the butt after engine assembly...may never happen but then again passing through 'some' arbitrary temperature just may have any remaining stress say 'free at last!' and well...there goes flatness again, better have that head torqued tight!

So,in the day (and in lots of places still developing today) they also learned a trick...mans best friend when it came to thinking about what to do with the cast iron warp thing, was...Mother Nature! Send a green casting through the 4 seasons before machining it and all of those stresses went bye-bye normalizing. No more chances for a bite in the butt. So personally, and as an iron-monger myself, I would not dismiss the Mother Nature thing as being impossible...it tied up inventory, but it was free and bullet-proof! And Folks also learned a full 4 seasons wasn't absolute to get that 100% success rate, but rain and snow helped, a good hot day helped, a cold day thrown in for good measure and if you shorted the 4 seasons, as long as you had some good temp swings, a bit of rain, your odds for a bite-ya only went up by a little bit over a full 'cure' anyway,...this at a time when normal foundry good yield was only about 92% anyway! (8 % throw away to recast at some point in manufacturing cycle).

We know alot more today than they originally did then. Just get some jiggles and get those stresses out of there, or heat the heck out of them in a controlled heat to about 375 and hold it for a while and a controlled cool cycle, and I am also sure that at some point Ford just had to go to ovens due to volume, but have never figured out when! Today real modern foundries don't even re-heat anymore, fuel costs too much and Wheelabrator became an icon. My shot/vibratory tunnels on #1 (the disc caliper,rotor, and head lines) are as long as a football field, and 'boxed' and with temp control and ventilation v. line speed for the pour so the original pour heat comes out on my terms, not the environments and therefore my 're-heat' is 'free'.

Someday I'll find when and how Ford went to ovens...somehow doubt though it was ever before Ford and 'time study' found critical mass, but who knows...will be fun finding out. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 06:56 am:

Ford aged their blocks by allowing them to cool somewhat prior to machining. I have seen many examples of completed cars being shipped from Highland Park in less than a week after the block was cast. These are documented in the Accounts Receivables in the Benson Ford archive.

Steve a block with a casting date and serial number date separated by more than a week or two is very unusual. Not unheard of, but far removed from normal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 11:03 am:

Royce

That is the case with my 1919 -
Casting date is July 28, 1919 and on July 30th (Henry Ford’s Birthday) it became motor number 3275690.
It was barely cold when it became a motor!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By KEN PARKER on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 01:19 pm:

Steve,

It may be that the examples you have were replacement blocks stamped by a dealer. Replacement blocks can also end up in earlier cars. Friend of mine has a engine with a 1916 cast date with a late 1913 number on it.

I have a July 1913 engine with a June 1913 cast date. The transmission was dated 6 days before engine date. Four week spread but summer is the slow time. A year does seem to be a long time for a block to sit but anything can happen.

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 08:00 pm:

OK, new tidbit from asking a guy who lives it rather than me just offer convention...nice thing about moving from 1920's casting tech to 2012 tech in just a few years. Went out and asked the 'super' who started as an apprentice floor pouring, then manual mold lines, now continuous mold lines.

What would HE do if the stress relief/ tempering lines failed, the furnaces were all charged with 80T in melt, all of the sand core molds were already exposed to air and heat, and had enough mold boxes to keep running…and STILL had to promise that we wouldn’t pick up a new ‘crust skin’ layer variable that would cause warp problems later during and after machining.

Took him maybe 15 seconds and he smiled…treat it like cast steel we do at other older foundry! Leave the mold box with the cope and drag intact and unopened for at least one shift, probably two, pile them up like a brick house right out of the pour line…then draw them off and manually have them backflow along the back side of the automatic pouring line in reverse order and ONLY then open the mold box and bang out the sand cores! No doubt in his mind he said, he’d hit as close to a home run as possible without adding too much risk for later machining warp while ‘green’.

OK, his view, but I’d put my money on him and if we were to lose the tempering and Wheelabrator line and really have 80T in melt, I’d give him the ball anyway with a ‘go for it’…

And until we know more about Ford way, a plausible and at least a view from a real hands on every day iron monger of the present on a way to add but maybe a day or two in extra handling and still feel the monster was under control.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 07:15 pm:

So nobody can answer my question about the R in my casting date? Thanks James


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 10:28 pm:

James,

Currently everyone who was there when the engine was cast and knows why the “R” was used is no longer living. But if we gather some additional information and work together, I think we have reasonable chance of figuring out what the “R” stood for.

From the thread at:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/178201.html

We have a Sep 16 or 18, 1921 engine with a Sep 23, 1921 engine production number owned by John Kuehn and shown below: [Correction to the Jun 16 or 18 1921 date mentioned in the previous posting. Comparing the number “6” o r”9” with the other two casting dates as well as the letter “R” – I believe the numbers are placed so you can read them easily and NOT with the top of the number touching the screw in the tag. If so, then it would be Sep 16 or 18, 1921. ]






Above Corey Walker’s Oct 14. 1921 casting date on a block that never had a serial number [normally that would indicate the block was for use as a replacement for a damaged block]. [Corey – based on how close John Kuehn’s casting date and serial number are – his block is probably NOT a replacement block. And in that case the “R” does NOT stand for Replacement.]

Below we have your [James Baker] Feb 22, 1922 casting date.



With a few more data points – we may be able to move a Hypotheses (guess) to a more reliable Theory (guess with more data to support it but one that could still be proven wrong by data that doesn’t fit the Theory).

We need to know the earliest known block with an “R” casting marks on it and what date is on that block? Currently with only 3 data points the earliest block casting date is Sep 1921.

When did the River Rouge start casting Model T Engine blocks? Again from the thread above [http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/178201.html ] we know the blast furnace at the River Rouge was operational by 1920 [at: http://www.fordmotorhistory.com/factories/river_rouge/blast_furnace.php it shares that one of the blast furnaces – the one named “Henry Ford II” dates back to 1920 (but it did not give a month).] And at: http://www.fordmotorhistory.com/factories/river_rouge/iron_foundry.php it states that the River Rouge Plant Iron Foundry
“When completed in 1921, Albert Kahn designed, this steel frame structure, situated about 350 feet east of the Turning Basin Slip, was probably the most impressive single unit of the Rouge. The largest foundry of its kind in the world, it not only poured 2,000 tons of castings each day but housed an impressive machining operation as well.

So did the River Rouge cast engine blocks in 1921 – and if so as George pointed out – the “R” would likely stand for the River Rouge foundry.

Again if we can get better documentation on when the River Rouge began casting engine blocks (not machining them – but casting them) that would be great.

And if we could find some additional samples of the “R” in the casting date. As George correctly pointed out – if we find an “R” casting date before the River Rouge stood up – then that would be a negative rather than a positive support to the Hypotheses.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off
(none of us know as much as all of us put together )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Page on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 05:53 am:

Hap,
I have just found this quote from the Ford R Bryan book " ROUGE Pictured in its Prime ". Chapter 5 page 49 titled FOUNDRY ( Quote : The very first Rouge castings were poured on December 25, 1920. By November 1922, four-cylinder engine blocks for the Model T were being cast.
Best regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 07:12 am:

John,

Thank you so much for the reference and the date. Note the “…by Nov 1922….” clearly says in Nov 1922 they were casting the T engine blocks at the River Rouge. I wish the author had known when they started casting the engine blocks. But evidently he did not or he would have said in “ … month year they started casting the engine blocks….”

If they didn’t start casting the engine blocks by Sep 1921 – then the “R” on the casting date would NOT mean River Rouge. And the Sep 1921 is a little over a year earlier than the Nov 1922 date. If the author had said “…by Nov 1912 ….” that would have only been two months before the Sep 1921 casting date and would have been much more feasible that they were doing trial casting runs a couple of months earlier.

If anyone can provide some additional data for when the engine blocks were first cast at the River Rouge foundry or other casting numbers with the “R” in them, it would be greatly appreciated.

Also in Bruce’s “Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia” [available from our MTFCA store at: http://modeltstore.myshopify.com/products/model-t-ford-comprehensice-encyclopedi a ] he had conducted a survey of engine serial numbers, casting dates, and what features the engine block had (style of freeze plugs etc). At the time of that survey he noted:

“No engines were found with casting dates
after December 1921. This was at the time the
one-piece valve door was introduced and
perhaps the dating was discontinued with this
redesign of the cylinder casting.”

Note that the Feb 2, 1922 engine is just past the last date Bruce had located which was a Dec 1, 1921 casting date block that had a Dec 12, 1921 serial number stamped on it.

For James Baker – could you please tell us if your engine has the one piece or two piece valve covers and the serial number feel free to xxx the last three or so numbers – it usually doesn’t make much difference in dating during this time frame. For example Feb 28, 1922 the engine records list 5,733,873 to 5,737,278 [some of those serial numbers could have been shipped to a USA branch for stamping on and engine that was assembled at the branch. Not all branches assembled engines.]

Three is still lots to re-discover. I’m looking forward to what other “fossil evidence” and also written evidence we can uncover. Thanks to everyone for there help and support on this or any of the other many things you do to support our club and hobby.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Baker on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 03:27 pm:

Hi Hap my engine has the 2 piece valve covers. The serial # is 5737***. This touring cutoff also has the 1 piece spindles which were only used for a couple months in 22. Thank you very much for helping me understand all of this. This cutoff has been in the family since new. I want to gather as much imformation I can about it, so when its time to pass it to its 5th generation of the Baker family they have the history on it. I'm 30 so there's still some time to do some research. Thanks James


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 09:43 pm:

James,

I'm glad your "cut off" has had a good home for so many years with the same family. That is great! Jim Cook restored his "cut off" that was bought new and stayed in the same family as a cut off -- because of its history. Thank you for sharing the additional information about your T. Hopefully we will get some additional data points about the Rouge and other casting dates with an "R" in them.

You might also want to check the right front floor board riser (the part that slants up and in and that holds the top two floorboards.) You may or may not find a number and possibly a letter stamped into that part. And many times it will be metal but it is possible it is still wood.

And before I forget again...the Canadian cars continued to use a similar round tag with the casting date on the block (also the hogs head) until the end of production. Starting in 1923 Ford of Canada started using a letter instead of numbers for the year. So A for 1923; B for 1924; C for 1925 etc. ref page 539 Bruce's book and thanks to Gavin for the reminder.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duane Markuson on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 11:14 am:

I have a block with out a serial # or a casting date. Is this a later block ? Thanks for your help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 03:17 pm:

Duane,

Bottom Line Up Front: It is likely that your engine was manufactured during 1922 or later as those USA engines did not normally have a casting date. [Note the first month or two of 1922 may have still had casting dates – ref the sample of 1 above that had a Feb 22, 1922 date.] Before 1922 many engines did have casting dates while others did not have a casting date.

The blocks would have been stamped with a serial number when they were assembled with the transmission and pan etc. Your block without any sort of serial number would have most likely been a replacement block for use when someone had a damaged block (such as when the owner allowed the engine to freeze and the block was damaged or they threw a rod etc.) In those cases the Ford dealer was directed by Ford to stamp the replacement block with the original engine number. Not all Ford dealers did that – but most would have. Independent repair shops and/or owners could have purchased the “new replacement” block and not stamped the numbers on it.

You can use the dates that things were approved for changes to approximate when the block was made. For example if it has a one-piece valve chamber door it would have been produced on or after Nov 1921. Ref http://mtfca.com/encyclo/E.htm#eng2 which says”
Beginning with about 5,530,000 (November 1921) the cylinder casting was altered to use the single valve chamber door. Beginning with 5,812,609 (April 3, 1922) all engines used the single door.

Other dates indicate when a change was proposed and not necessarily when it was implemented:
See: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/E.htm#eng2 cylinder block.

From Bruce’s “Model T Comprehensive Encyclopedia” [available from our MTFCA store at: http://modeltstore.myshopify.com/products/model-t-ford-comprehensice-encyclopedi a ]

Concerning USA engines Bruce states:

“Interestingly, not all Model T engines had
casting dates. It seems that, apparently, some
of the foundry cores had provision for dating
while others did not. The accompanying
compilation generally lists only those engines
that do have a casting date except in a few
cases where some feature, such as the water
jacket plugs, aids in dating a change in design.
No engines were found with casting dates
after December 1921.”

Concerning Canadian engines Bruce states:
Casting dates on Canadian engines followed the
same pattern as the U.S. engines, and apparently not all
engines were dated. Generally, this date appeared as
month-day-year (10-22-19 would be October 22, 1919,
for example). beginning about January 1923, Ford of
Canada began to use a letter instead of the year number.

You can also look at the width of the serial number pad and get an idea of when the block was cast. The later blocks had a much wider serial number pad than the earlier ones. They needed the additional room for more numbers.

If you need help in narrowing down the date of your block if you post some photos and/or details about the block folks can help determine the approximate time frame. Remember in the case of the one-piece or two piece valve covers there was a six month overlap when Ford produced both in the USA. And for many other changes there also would have been overlap when the old and new style were both being made or used.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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