T firing order question

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: T firing order question
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By lorenzo leon on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 05:37 pm:

I see i the tinkering tips book volume 1 that if i take the the magnets off the flywheel i might need to
change it to 1-3-4-2 from 1-2-4-3 because the change in weight of the flywheel
What is best-
and if so.. how can it be changed
Thank you Lorenzo


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 05:41 pm:

It should always be 1-2-4-3. Otherwise, you would have to get a custom camshaft made to change the firing order.

Many Ts run the original firing order with no magnets and have no issues, mine being one of them. In fact, I have never heard of anyone changing the firing order on their T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Cassara Long Island, NY on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 05:46 pm:

1-2-4-3 looks like a reverse rotation on the stock cam ???? Would that actually work?

1-(3-4-2-1)-3-4-2
...<------


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg Whaley, Georgetown Ontario Canada on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 05:50 pm:

Firing order is 1-2-4-3 as Cameron said, with #1 being the cylinder closest to the rad.

Our 27 Hack ran for 15+ years with no magnets, zero issues


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnH on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 07:12 pm:

Because of the change in weight of the flywheel??
What is the logic behind that?
I've had magnets and no magnets and you wouldn't know the difference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By lorenzo leon on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 07:25 pm:

D'ont know about the logic..but if you look on tinkering tips volume 1 page 8 is where i see this article
just made me wonder, for i use 1/2 the magnets
i'll just leave it alone
thanks lorenzo


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 07:41 pm:

North or south of the equator? Solstice or equinox?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 08:17 pm:

Firing order is set by the crank and cam. I guess you could change it to: 4-3-1-2...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 08:27 pm:

Wise old ford owner once say: "1243 is the rule for the Model T....1342 and it's over the fender with you!" :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 10:17 pm:

Remind me not to bother buying Tinkering Tips.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 11:43 pm:

hey Aaron.... dont buy tinkering tips :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 08:07 am:

You could trade your timing gears for sprockets and run a timing chain. Then your firing order would be 1342. :-) You could turn your engine over backwards and use the exhaust ports as intakes and vice-versa. If you do this, I'd flip the rear end over too! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Dimock, Newfields NH, USA on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 09:56 am:

The order to fire is usually given by a sergeant. :-)

As in "Ready --- Fire"


For a 21 gun salute it is given 3 times to seven guys -
but it could be given to 3 guys seven times.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 10:43 am:

Ted Aschmann was a nice guy who collected tips. He did not claim to have researched them to see if they were a good idea, or even if they would work at all. You must keep this in mind as you read them.

Many "Tinkerin Tips" are downright dangerous, or simply unworkable, but provided filler every time the magazine was published in any case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 01:57 am:

I wouldn't consider changing the firing order on a T unless I came up with one of those two up two down crankshafts. They are intriguing. I wonder how one of those would work with timer and coils?
Otherwise, my old gray race car not only had no magnets, it had about an inch and a half cut off all the way around the flywheel. It had custom made box tubing slingers to move the oil. It ran great and went up hills better than any other T I have ever driven. I passed lots of speedsters going up hills.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Heffey on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 02:37 am:

John Cassara raised an interesting idea on Wednesday. If you reversed the rotation of the engine, then the firing order would change from 1-2-4-3 to 1-3-4-2. If you then move the crown wheel from the left to the right side of the diff and hey presto you have a new firing order and the car going in the right direction. The only things to work out will be cranking the engine and why you would bother.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andrew Heffey on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 02:41 am:

Doh, I should have read this thread closer, Tom had the same idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Cassara Long Island, NY on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 05:56 am:

Andrew counter rotating marine engines. That would be the only good reason. Otherwise maybe to re-power some older vehicle with an opposite rotation drive train.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Cassara Long Island, NY on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 06:00 am:

For reverse rotation the cam would have to be flipped end for end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 06:18 am:

The big point with a reverse rotating T engine is the same as the two up/two down => to separate the intake pulses from #1 and #2. The problem with a reverse rotating T engine may be too much heat at the former intake ports, now serving as exhausts - and likely the transmission bands if it still uses the planetary trans. The pedal cams are arranged so the bands are self energizing when locking the drums. When rotating the other way around some machining would be needed to fit the cams in some other way so the bands acts with the anchor point on the opposite side.

Note how the cam action is carefully kept the same in a RHD hogshead even with the inconvenience of hiding the low gear adjustment inside the hogshead - so evidently it was of some importance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Cassara Long Island, NY on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 06:23 am:

When properly done a reverse rotation engine will use the original intake and exhaust ports as they were intended. That's why the cam needs to be flipped. As for the trany-bands I'll leave that to the more advanced hobbyists to consider.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 06:36 am:

Many ways to speed up the old ford - never considered the flip cam version.. thanks, John :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Cassara Long Island, NY on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 07:47 am:

Did some checking...the cam in a reverse rotation engine is either a custom grind with proper lobe shape to run in reverse or needs to be spun in the original direction via gear drive or chain. Have to admit I feel like I forgot more than I had ever known. LOL :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 10:52 am:

Since all magneto coils work together on every firing - nothing in the stock magneto would have anything whatever to do with the firing order. Magneto puts out a current bump 16 times per rotation. If you reversed the engine rotation to CCW then the magneto timing bump would be off because the 7 degree lead built into the flywheel would be then a 7 degree lag but the result would still have nothing to do with firing order since the timing would change for all 4 and their relative positions in time for firing would be the same regardless of which order they were fired. The magneto is not like a timer which selects a cylinder to power. The magneto is a source of AC current that is synchronized to the flywheel and thus to each piston position but all magneto windings are wired in series and all work together to produce each of the 16 current bumps. There is not relevance to any particular cylinder that is being selected by the timer for firing.

I have shuddered many times at some of the things published by Ted. Most of his electrical stuff is questionable and some of just downright incorrect. I liked old Ted but he often misquoted me and went to print without my ever seeing what he was doing. I learned not to answer any question of his unti or unless he told me exactly what he was doing or reproting. I would strongly recommend that any "tip" you intend to put in practice be checked out thoroughly with a few other folks before you do it. There are some treasures in there but there are a few thorns in there too.


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