Building this:

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Building this:
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jim mccathren on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 06:40 pm:

My grandfather owned this sprint car. It sat, complete, in a scrap yard until the mid 80's. By the time I found that out, and went to get it, the scrap yard was long gone. Now, I want to build it. All I have is this picture and know that it was a T chassis with a supercharged Dodge Fast Four engine. It was completed in 1927 and, according to old newspapers, won several races around Texas. I'm not yet a T head and know zero about T's at this point so, I turn to the experts. What can be learned from this picture and where do I start?

Thanks! 1927 sprint car


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harvey Decker on Wednesday, May 30, 2012 - 06:53 pm:

Hello Jim:

http://www.mccathren.com/architect_motorsports.htm

Harvey .....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nathan Bright on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 06:28 pm:

Harvey... well done. I have a primed 26-27 chassis i will gladly donate to this project... IF.. you will let me drive it once :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 03:20 pm:

Are you sure that it had a Dodge engine? It looks like it could be a T engine. It looks like a four-dip pan.
Welcome to the affliction. And good luck.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 06:42 pm:

Jim,

What a great idea! And it will make a very fun car. Below is an elnargement of the photo you posted.



I'm 99% sure that the car has a T engine and transmission. The head would be an aftermarket item. If you would please click on my name and my e-mail address is the third line down. Please send me a higher resolution scan of the photo and we could probably tell more details about the car or at least zoom in on the head etc. and post them so others with more information about the accessory heads etc. could comment.

From what I can see so far, I believe the block is a 1922 or earlier T block with a two valve covers. Again the higer resolution scan would allow us to see more details. And it appears to have an accesory oil sump. The one shown at Lang's Old Car Parts at http://www.modeltford.com/item/T4DP-2.aspx is for a 1924-27 style 4 dip pan (see: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/E.htm#eng8 ) But I believe they had similar sumps that could be added to the 3 dip pan to increase the oil capacity also.

Please take a look at the Northwest Vintage Speedster site for a lot of information about the Model T speedsters and in your case racers. They are located at: http://www.nwvs.org/ and have lots of photos of cars, engines, etc.

Note many of the cars would have the engines replaced numerous times. And it is always possible that during a different racing season he used a different engine and transmission set up -- perhaps a Dodge. While it would also be possible to mate a Dodge engine to a T transmission and pan -- that is highly unlikely in my opinion. It would be a lot of work and there was not nearly as much speed equipment for the Dodge as there was for the Model T Ford engine.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 07:02 pm:

Hap

Nice work, have to agree it seems to be a Model T block.

That would mate with the facts on the website for MotorSports. The race brochure is for a race held July 3 1927 and the owner is listed with a car called "McCathern Special"

The photograph of the car is later, its dated on the face as Sept 1930...three years after the race brochure, so perhaps on the 1930 date the racer got a 'supercharged' engine, that would make sense as supercharger would have been more rare in 1927.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 10:19 pm:

That is a 4v or 5v updraft Winfield carburetor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 10:59 pm:

Any relation to this Jim? What was your granddad's first name?

From Breckenridge American, Tuesday Dec. 6, 1960


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 12:02 am:

What can be learned from this picture? Certainly that your Grandfather was one cool dude! Good luck with your project Jim!


Deron


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jim mccathren on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 04:10 pm:

Thanks guys! Every bit of info is a huge help and greatly appreciated.

I put the original photo somewhere where it would never be lost and, of course, it took days to figure out where that was.

The McCathren Motor Company ad was us. Earnest McCathren (grand father) started the dealership in 1923. Also picked up Chrysler and Plymouth. The dealership was inherited by my dad and his brother (Robert and Earl) and sold in early 1980. How in the world did you find that ad?

The internet pic is cropped to reduce file size and the original has the photographers name and is dated 1926. The Sep 28-30 date at the bottom of the pic was the date of the Oil Belt Fair races in 1926.

So, we are looking at a T engine in the picture. According to my deceased dad, it was re-powered with the Dodge Brothers Fast Four engine which would have happened in 1927/28 since those were the only production years of that engine.

Some of the mysteries are beginning to unravel. Thanks for all your input and feel free to keep right on.

Thanks - Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 09:19 pm:

A $100 bet. A dream of running on the salt flats. And one of the best stories I've read in a while of how a team can accomplish so much more than a single individual. Not a Ford story ... but remember a lot of parts on the earlier Fords were actually produced by Dodge Brothers. And whatever your dream is ... it too can come true. Recommended reading at:

http://www.fastfourspecial.com/the-story.html

About the engine -- note it also has the two valve cover style engine block. Jim -- if you locate a higher resolution scan of your photo please let me take a look at it.
http://www.fastfourspecial.com/engine.html

Rust Free ... well not exactly: http://www.fastfourspecial.com/body.html

On the salt 2008 -- to win the $100 bet. Cheers for victory but short lived

On the salt 2009 -- it was worth it! http://www.fastfourspecial.com/2009-speedweek.html

There is more to the story -- but those were some great parts. And that should provide some motivation for many of us to "get 'er done" what ever our projects may be.

Respectfully submitting topic drift -- while it is about the Dodge Brothers Fast Four engine -- it was too good not to share.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Burg on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 10:50 pm:

Thanks Hap for all the good reading, great story.
Les


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