I have both a Moore Transmission (sits in front of differential) and a Ruckstell for a Model TT. I have not pulled either apart, so I do not know the condition of either differential. Just looking at which one I should start on. Was going to put in the standard TT differential until I read that 20 mph was top speed.
I have done some searching, on the MTFCA forum, on the two different differentials. I just want to know if I am on the right track with my thinking.
The Moore Transmission has a Low/Neutral/Overdrive gearing. Remember I have not opened my Moore Transmission to see if this is the norm.
The Ruckstell just has a Low/1to1 and no overdrive?
If I am right it would be better to use the Moore Transmission (if repairable) to keep up with the Model T cars. I do not want to race the Model TT just cruse with the standard Model Ts.
Note: Will also be using a high speed (5.17:1) worm and wheel from Mike Hartmann, if that makes a difference in my options.
Thank you ALL for your T knowledge.
Colin
The Ruckstell is a direct and under drive unit but, I am not sure about the Moore. In either case accessory brakes are a must.
Stephen
Colin, The 5.17 with 650-20 tires will do 42mph. I would use both as you will get more choices of ratios. I have the 5.17 and a Ruckstell and with a load and the mountains around here the Moore would be a nice addition. The fact that you have both makes me think you may have the 5.17 already.Scott
Colin-
I had a Moore on my touring car for one season. Is was under drive and direct drive. The Moore has a special shiftlock assembly, which I did not have. I had just a regular Ruckstell shift lever. The problem with that is it popped out of gear!
I then got a Ruckstell and rebuilt it and have been a Ruckstell used ever since. I have them on all my cars. Some standard gears, some 3:1. The Ruckstell is very user friendly.
I'm not sure how the One Ton Moore is different from the standard chassis.
Double check that your Moore indeed has an overdrive and be sure that it has the proper shiftLOCK. I might be tempted to use both, the Ruckstell for the Underdrive and the Moore for the Overdrive.
As Stephen says, make sure you have outside brakes!
: ^ )
Keith
Hi Colin,
I'm not sure about a moore for a ton truck but we have one in the roadster and it's very robust, but, most of them were a 2:1 underdrive which is great for climbing walls.
The reduction in a Ruxtell isn't as low and the best way I can put it is like this. In a car the 3:1 gearing is too tall and a ruxtell in underdrive will get you back to something like standard gearing. A Moore is lower again and is much like stepping back to Ford low.
In a TT you need OVERDRIVE. The 5:1 gearing is ok but slow. A new warford will get you going along like the passenger cars, but in any truck I think an extra tailshaft bushing/support can be useful to prevent a lot of vibration. I think a Moore can be assembled backwards however I think it'd be too tall.
Some Moores were overdrive (.85?) I believe but they're straight cut and would be noisy like ours is when climbing hills.
As mentioned you need a Moore shifter with a detent for 3 positions. It does give you a free neutral for cold starts but extra brakes are a must.
Let us know what you find...
cheers
Anthony
Hey Keith do you still have that Moore gearbox? to sell? ;)
cheers
Anthony
Gone years ago
I have a Muncie tho...
Go with the Ruckstell, and try to get a good overdrive. Every Moore I have ever seen was a direct and underdrive. The Moore for the car is a nice unit. The one for a TT has different housings and couplings to fit the TT drive-shaft. But the gears are not much heavier than the car unit. The one I have the remains of, is SHOT!
I might know where you could get a Muncie? If I had the money to spare, I would contact Kieth T myself.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Thank you all for your input. I went home and disassembled the Moore Transmission to see what type I have, before I go any further with this discussion.
It looks like I have the correct lever. But no rod from the lever to the Transmission.
The Moore Transmission ID
Disassembled
Just a bit more information about gearing. Please use photo to assist in may explanation.
Gear 1 - 15 teeth
Gear 2 - 21 teeth
Gear 3 - 15 teeth
Gear 4 - 21 teeth
Gear 1 is fixed to the drive shaft.
Gear 4 free wheels on rear shaft.
Gear 1 and 4 are not on the same shaft.
(Note: clutch/slide is the arrow)
Slide the clutch/slide towards Gear 1 - locks the two shafts together, 1:1
Slide the clutch/slide towards middle - Gear 1 spins Gears 2 & 3 , and Gear 4 spins free on the shaft, Neutral.
Slide the clutch/slide towards Gear 4 - locks Gear 4 to rear shaft. Same as middle location, but Gear 4 now drives the rear shaft. I assume this to be underdrive.
My question is how do I work out the ratio for the underdrive?
If it does not have overdrive I might as well stick with the ruckstell. More MTFCA manuals written on how to rebuild a ruckstell.
Once again thank you all for your input.
Colin
Can you take some more pictures of the shifter Colin?
I really like the ID plate... I havn't seen one of them before. It looks quite different to what I remember ours looking like.
I'd like to know what ratio it is too;)
Cheers
Anthony
while we are on the subject of accessory trannys... i purchased a disassembled, aluminum housing, Warford. does anyone have a diagram of how it all goes back together?
Hi Colin,
You have a direct and underdrive. When the slider goes back it is in under. When the slider goes forward the shafts are coupled together and you have direct. The TT has two ratios. 7.15 and 5.25 It sounds low but with the 650-20 tires you will be alright. Most of the trucks came with the 7.15 and they are slow. But with the 5.25 and the tall tires you will run with the cars. You can do over 40 mph but it will like 30 much better. The TT has big rear brakes and will slide the tires easily. So you dont need external brakes unless you haul loads. Then you can overpower the TT brakes. Enjoy your truck, Scott
Here's a link to the Moore Transmission from an ACCESSORY OF THE DAY post.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/139700.html
Low ratio of gears as shown would be 15/21*15/21 or .5102 to 1.
I do not understand the several comments regarding the necessity of having outside brakes with the Ruckstell. I believe the concern is that the drivetrain can become disconnected from the transmission which results in having no stopping ability. But that is true regardless of whether you have a Ruckstell or a stock Ford differential.
I have a 26-27 Ruckstell with large drums which have lined brake shoes for the emergency brake. In fact I use the emergency brake to stop occasionally in addition to the transmission brake. How is this any different than rocky mountain brakes other than the fact that mine are internal?
Anthony, Here's several photos of the shifter taken from 5 different sides. Hope this helps. The whole for the linkage has been filled because of ware and needs to be drilled out when I get to installing it.
Dan, The TT has bigger brakes that the car.
Hello Anthony and Jay
I have taken some photos of my lever as well to compare.
One thing I notice that Jays lever has a heavy duty spring, whereas my lever only has a wire spring.
Dan,
I believe the concern is that the Ruckstell could find an unintended 'neutral' between low and direct and it might not go back into gear. That is not true in a standard Ford rear end, unless something breaks.
I can understand why accessory brakes could be a must with the Moore Transmission. While reading a couple of the other MTFCA discussions on AUX transmissions, I have found it is easy to miss a gear and end up in a neutral, disconnecting the transmission from the differential.
The problem with these aux. trannys is that if you do wind up in 'neutral' on a shift and not that 1/2 second pass thru...or your keeper isn't good enough on the lever and is just slides into neutral while driving, almost no amount of gear grinding is going to get it back! The only way to re-engage is to stop...but since the driveline is in 'neutral', how do you do that?
Forgot to say.....the safest way to run an 'aux' is to not use it as a dynamic transmission.....pick a gear...leave it there...then use lo-hi IN that gear...but I'll probably get a lecture on that....lol
Just my opinion - The safest way to run an aux trans is with effective brakes that work at the wheels. I much prefer to shift on the fly - With my Chicago, I often start in low pedal underdrive, then go to high pedal underdrive, high pedal direct and high pedal overdrive (if the speed limit is over 35 or 40).
An aux trans without effective brakes at the wheels is scary even if you never shift on the fly as it doesn't take much of an unplanned bump to knock one out of gear.
Jay, the shifter you show does not have a slot for a positive neutral like the one Colin shows. My roadster shifter has the positive slot for neutral, but has a different configuration to Colin's. My lever is a piece of tubing with a knob threaded directly to it.
John's calculation of the ratio is spot on with my experience. I thought it to be an underdrive of 50%.
Having no auxiliary brakes, I am cautious when making changes, using the lay of the land as insurance if needed, eg by changing up before cresting a hill so that I am in gear before descending.
Auxiliary brakes should not be a necessity on a TT. Lined original brakes, with an equaliser installed should be ample. As these are wheel brakes, you are safe even given a failure in the trans.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
Allan, very perceptive, now that you point it out I see Colin's shifter has three positions and mine has only two. Many Thanks! Jay
Jay,
Does your shifter mount using a ball cap bolt and an inspection door screw?
Ours has the 3 seperate positions but the whole mechanism is saddled around the round portion of the tailshaft just behind the ball casting.
Must get some pictures of it...
Cheers
Anthony
A Moore transmission came in the 1919 TT fire engine I am restoring, but it did not come with the Moore shift lever. The fire department I purchased the fire engine from told me it did jump out of gear occasionally, and they had a hinge contraption on the floorboard to try and keep it in gear. Does anyone have an extra original Moore shift lever they would be willing to sell for my restoration? I really like the photos I see in this posting, and I would like to have one of the original shift levers if at all possible. Thanks. Wes Melo