1927 T vaporizer hard to start

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: 1927 T vaporizer hard to start
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clint Wessels on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 02:27 am:

My T is extremely difficult to start, I have to put fuel down the cylinder to get it going,. The vaporizer is brand new, as is the manifold and gaskets. My question is, once I get it going, should I adjust the mixture to find the proper setting that this Lizzy likes? I've been trying 1 turn open from fully closed but she won't fire with that setting. Do I need to choke it more, less? If she's not getting enough fuel, then a richer mixture when trying to start will help?
All input from you guys will be greatly appreciated
thx,
Clint


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 03:04 am:

Clint I can't say much on vaporizer settings because I always take them off and install an NH on all my cars and anyone elses that I get in the shop. I always start a new carb on TWO open turns and then go from there. If you are trying to start your T with only one turn no wonder it won't start.

waiting to assemble


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 03:06 am:

waiting for assembly


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 04:52 am:

Clint, I find that when all is well with the vaporizer it usually takes less adjusting. All has to be right though, you can have no air leaks any where. KB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 05:09 am:

As Dave Huson points out, the simplest to figure out whats up is to plop an NH in there. My '27 and the other 2 I work on locally all look like Daves stash and I didn't change any of them, somebody must have not figured out what they came with.

Vap0rizers seem to be tough on everybody unless they have a passion to really stop and figure them out and then seem quite easy from there by those who use them...best bet...someone in BC that has one should be your new best friend.

On an NH...one turn from closed may not be enough to 'start', may want to run there later but not start...don't know about a vaporizer. Most manual carbs are simple...too little and they just balk all darned day...give then an extra 1/2 a turn or 3/4 and they'll start but burn your eyes out with the exhaust :-) So then the CCW back off to smooth. Kind of like Goldilocks...after a few, you learn where just right is for starting..and if you then need one setting for start and one for run...don't worry, be happy, you have lots of company...yeah some get lucky and only have '1' setting all the time...and others claim '1' setting and get 5 miles per gallon. :-) Now if you get it started where it is at now and in about 5 minutes the manifold gets cherry red...definately screwed in too tight so go from there, open it until manifold stops glowing...then next time try and start from there and if not, try 1/4 more for start or 1/2 more for start.

You are chasing both a manifold change and a carb change...might want to spray some starter fluid on the manifold glands while someone turns engine over...you get a kick sputter and die...manifold leaks and isn't seated tight, can't pull fuel. Or, plop on an old NH and if it goes, manifold is OK.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 06:54 am:

I have a Holley Vaporizer on my '17 torpedo runabout. To start it cold I pull the crank up three times with the choke pulled and the key off, throttle closed, mixture open about 1 turn.

Then I pull the throttle all the way down. Turning the key on "BAT" results in a "free start" about 90% of the time. If not a single pull up on the crank does it.

Note that the Vaporizer throttle linkage is a lot "slower" than linkage on an NH or Kinston L series carb. You have to move the throttle twice as far it seems with the Vaporizer to get equivalent results.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 08:12 am:

Clint, I have seen instances where the flapper didn't close properly or was missing that made a vaporizer car hard starting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 09:58 am:

I'd check float setting, inlet valve (some say the 2 ball type are a problem) flow of gas into carb, and gasket leaks. Check to be sure outlet tube nut is tight. I'd start with a 1 and 1/2 open turn on adjusting rod. Choking system on my vaporizer is very effective. I have to be carefull not to over choke.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Barker, Somerset, England on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 10:34 am:

Unless it's been run in the last 5 minutes, I have to spin the motor 4 compressions with the ignition off and the choke closed. Then I open the choke and turn on, and it starts.
This works 99% of the time.
Not doing this works 1% of the time!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 10:43 am:

Make sure that it is actually choking. There used to be a guy in our club who always had trouble starting his '27 with vaporizer when cold. Everything seemed to be adjusted just right, but it wouldn't start. He finally discovered that even though he was pulling the choke in the car, it was barely moving at the carb. Once he got it figured out and actually choked it, it started easily.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 11:16 am:

I think its time to retell the Hot plate story that I have posted before. I had a friend that went on Ben Hardeman's first Alaska trip. The trip took them clear to the Artic Circle. My friend's T was a 26 roadster Pickup with a HOT PLATE! The T ran flawlessly up to the Artic Circle and back to Colorado (many thousands of miles. The T started running rough about 20 miles from town and quit out about 3 miles and had to be towed in to town. After he got home he found that the hot plate had burned a hole in it and could not suck any gas up to the manifold. Of coarse he was very disappointed to drive that entire way only to break down about 6 miles out of town
NH's


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 12:14 pm:

I think there is a brass tube that runs between the float body and the vaporizer upper section. This can leak and suck air. That might be the cause of your problem. If its rebuilt with a new plate its not likely burned through.

Commenting on the Alaska trip,the owner should be happy that he made the nearly the entire trip. Next time he can carry a spare plate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 02:15 pm:

That brass tube is the Outlet Tube T6269. The brass Outlet tube "Nut" T6269 is round and has to be tightened (gently) with a pair of pliers. The flair on the upper end of the tube should butt up against the upper section before running on the nut. Leave the four screws that hold the Heating Plate in place a bit loose till the Outlet Tube Nut is tightened. Then tighten them. http://old-carburetors.com/1927-Dykes/1927-Dykes-059.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clint Wessels on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 02:22 pm:

When trying to start i have noticed fuel around the float body, after she starts the fuel around the float body is gone. Does this indicated flooding? i don't think is a leak otherwise the fuel would be present all the time. i don't think its flooding, because when i put fuel down the cylinder she fires up. I purchased all my parts from Macs.The manifold intake gasket is a one piece which was difficult to get everything lined up when trying to tighten everything down, visualy I do not see any misalignment or gaps anywhere. The spark plugs indicate fuel is present, however, I take it not enough fuel.
Thanks for your input i wish one of you guys lived close to me to come take a look at it. I'll check again, and make sure everything is tight, I'll try more turns out on the mixture setting. I do recall seeing a red exhaust, but i thought it was from the timing being too retarded. that was last year when i fired her up. After your guys input, I advance the timing after she starts to prevent the cherry glow exhaust. Yesterday I didn't see a red hot exhaust. It could still be too lean though, might have been on the border between hot and turning red. When i get her running again, I'll adjust the timing, mixture and throttle to get her purring, then I'll see how rich I can get her (while still sounding good) and then try starting from that point next time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Thursday, May 31, 2012 - 03:40 pm:

Ted Dumas:

He got rid of the hot plate and installed an NH. An NH is much more dependable, much more easy to rebuild and easy to install. If I am not mistaken didn't the Ford Company go back to NH and Kingston during the last of the Ts

picture


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William Harper - Keene, NH on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 09:44 am:

"He got rid of the hot plate and installed an NH. An NH is much more dependable, much more easy to rebuild and easy to install."

Advise reminiscent of the Distributor Crowd: "Coils? Why would you ever want to use Those things? They never worked right. Do yourself a favor and get a distributor. A distributor is much more dependable and trouble free. It is easy to install and adjust. If you really want to drive your T and enjoy it, you need a distributor."

The numerous happy and satisfied users of the Vaporizer have made an investment in time and some effort to fully understand the construction and function of the Vaporizer; just as the users of the coil and magneto ignition system know and love it.

My two cents worth. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 11:16 am:

Good point William. I can understand exactly where you are coming from. I'm not a big fan of the 'improved cars', but if I ever find myself owning one with the vaporizor carb, I think I would do exactly as you say. There's something to be said for learning the original systems and making them work as intended. Hat's off to you, sir.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 04:24 pm:

Indeed, the Vaporizer works very well. It is not complex, it simply requires you pay attention when assembling and choosing parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 04:24 pm:

Indeed, the Vaporizer works very well. It is not complex, it simply requires you pay attention when assembling and choosing parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bud Holzschuh - Panama City, FL on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 05:29 pm:

Royce

Free starts 90% of the time ?!

Where do I sign up for your carburetor class?

(Seriously...I dream about free starts, only had 3)

Cheers
schuh


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 05:57 pm:

I too dumped the Vap on my '27. Went to the NH. Starting & adjustments got easier. Did I fully understant the Vap? Probably not. But what threw me over to the NH was the fact that no new ones were available. (Send us your core. If- if, maybe, maybe. You know the drill). So unless things have changed Clint there's no such thing as a new Vap. True, there's no new NH's either but their so numerous and so simple I have no problems with them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 05:59 pm:

My cars with vap require choking hot or cold but start easily then. I have found that the aftermarket flat intake/exh gaskets do not work and I use only original type glands and rings coated with high temp sealer. I have ran several national tours and recently the Kanuga NC tour with my cars and never had a vap problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 11:40 pm:

Free starts are all about two things. Your timing has to be correctly set, and you have to figure out how to achieve the proper starting mixture.

My 1912 touring is more like 98% of the time using the same technique.

My '15 touring still has a very tight engine despite having 4000 miles since the last rebuild. It does it only 5% of the time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 11:15 am:

so, I recently purchased a 1927 Touring, and it has the NH equipped instead of the Vaporizer. I was wondering if you could show me your throttle linkage set up. My block is not drilled between 2 and 3, thus the linkage has to go over the top of the block. The problem I am having is that when increasing the throttle, I get no action until just about full open, when it suddenly jumps. I have complete control going back down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 11:33 am:

I found my answer, looks like langs sells the conversion part that I need.


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