WOW a "What the" moment

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: WOW a "What the" moment
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J and M Machine Co Inc on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 07:52 pm:

A customer brought us an engine today. He had just purchased it. He had shown me the hand written receipt of what had been done. Mentioned balanced to half a gram and everything was magnafluxed. Also engine still had shims for future take up. Had N.O.S. valves installed and also had 1 kevlar band for brake installed.
New camshaft as stated.


Well we knew who had done the work and knew he was a self proclaimed master; sarcastically speaking. What I saw was something else I just didn't think they could of stooped so low.

While the engine was still on his trailer I removed the inspection cover and stuck a finger nail into the goo on the drive plate. "Sludge"

The customer had time so I prefer to take the engine apart in front so they can see how good or bad as you never know what's in store until you disassemble it.

You can see in the pictures the crank was welded on the web for some reason. The crank is cracked as I magnafluxed it.
The babbitt was long gone on the rods and time saver was evident. The camshaft was used and the only thing new was pistons,rings and one kevlar band. we also found cracks in the block which was all supposed to be checked.

The transmission drums/gears are cracked and worn out. The funny thing is this engine never ran.

Bottom line is what's left to reuse is Block,pan timing cover,side cover,hogs head,flywheel,and maybe the other three rods.The block also has to get bored and honed again since the dirt scored the cylinders.

As the saying goes "Why so much I just had it rebuilt".!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Clipner-Los Angeles on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 08:18 pm:

Umm, small claims court ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Aiken, SC on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 08:26 pm:

This post is a useless plug unless you single out the original rebuilder. "Self proclaimed master" won't cut it.

Other service/parts providers go under the same scrutiny here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 08:27 pm:

I would be suing the crap out of somebody if that happened to me....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By roy palmer on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 08:35 pm:

Geez. Are you saying the guy rebuilt the engine with old defective parts when customer thought he was getting a complete rebuild?

I'm betting its that guy up there in Massachusetts. That guy should be tar and feathered....Still see a guy on this forum recommending him though...that, i don't understand...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 09:05 pm:

Yup, Gary's right. You gotta name names.
I have a hunch there is more to the story than we have read so far.
Why didn't the owner install it?
What was his first clue that it was not right?
why did he take it to that guy in the first place?
We can not discuss this project intellegently without more information.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 09:12 pm:

Sorry...but have a different view.

I'm only one guy but someone else is losing respect here to me, and it isn't who 'probably' rebuilt it. Just sayin' If the original poster doesn't want to post his own findings, then as a rebuilder yourself I don't believe it is your place to 'point'and slant it as to whose work you are going to 'fix'...you could have made it generic!

But keep in mind I'm just a cranky old man, not out to defend anybody,not out to be forum nazi, just sharing my first impression.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J and M Machine Co Inc on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 09:14 pm:

Quote"This post is a useless plug unless you single out the original rebuilder. "Self proclaimed master" won't cut it.

Other service/parts providers go under the same scrutiny here."

This is not a shameless plug although the person that did this work is definitely shameless!

This engine was bought knowing who had done the work and was a "core" engine.
The reason being "CORE" the customer who bought it from the widow knew what the quality of the work these people did.
Since this family is still promoted on this website I'll let the owner of the engine say it rather than us mention them. However they are located in our state 'MA'

Again I didn't put this up to say we're better than anyone else but this is clearly a wake up call to anyone wanting to have an engine done is to KNOW YOUR BUILDER so this doesn't happen to you.!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Aiken, SC on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 09:33 pm:

Shameless is all I can agree with if that is a finished product presented to customer.
You should have left the post to the engine owner then, since you won't make us potential customers aware.

I smell "this is us and thems them". Sorry


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By roy palmer on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 09:40 pm:

As I recall , the last time this builder was called out for bad work, his name was mentioned.

Many on this forum complained that naming him was wrong. One of his victims actually called for a stop to naming him. So it can be a no win on this forum, damned if you do and damned if you dont.

That said, if you follow this forum you know who this builder is, its no mystery...

There are many skilled experienced and
knowledgable professionals and hobbyists on this forum and I think its a negative to accuse them of plugging themselves. When you do that, those people will no longer post and we will all lose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Aiken, SC on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 09:51 pm:

Roy, but those that know of their prowess will seek them out.

I just don't see the need for "look what I found" posts if you're in the biz. It isn't name calling if it's the verifiable truth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 10:16 pm:

Do we really care if the guy that built that engine posts on here?
What could he have to offer? Advice on engine assembly? Fitting mains? Selecting useable parts?
Doing honest, first class work?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 10:27 pm:

Gary, Aaron, George, You all have very short memories.

Not once in a while, but every time I have seen somebody blow the whistle, no matter if it is on here, or all the other Forums, the first thing that comes up is name names!!!

Then what happens, every guy that has some contact with that vender, says, Oh, I used him and I think he is the best in the world!!

Then the Whistle blower gets all kind of crap, like, you done it for your own gain, my engine was done by them, and it is great, I think it is just jealously, and on, and on.

The pictures say it all, if you have eyes to see, and ears to hear. It is up to the Owner to find out, no one else, just look what you could end up with.

I hope this is an extreme case, but boys there are more out there then you know! And NO, I don't need more work either, so that should take away any hidden motives you think I always have!

The last thing, when you know the right way to build a engine, and there is only one way to do each task on an engine, and cut NO corners, and another shop cuts corners, and only does half the things that should have been done and then a owner will make a choice on price, thinking that the work is all the same, oh well!

A motor well run wore out most of the time also!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 11:07 pm:

Uh what does it matter who built it? I bought a engine that was supposedly rebuilt.The pistons gaulded in 15 minutes.Still pecks sometimes when I left off the gas.
Cracks werent welded right and such.I have no idea who did it but considering where I bought it,it was not done in Ma.
Welded rods and crank? Reciept with all kinds of high tech stuff said to be done? Does it matter who did it? This is just a fair warning post for folkes to learn to WATCH OUT!
I am glad the man took the time to post what he found.I would be disturbed,perturbed and probably staked out like a goat in the sun at the court house to file in small claims court or whatever other rights I could find.

Sometimes I think if this group was in a movie theator,and there was smoke rolling in thru the doors and somebody hollared "FIRE", depending on who it was,people would just keep eating their pop corn till their backsides lit up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sosnoski on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 11:50 pm:

Do the welds have something to do with trying to balance it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Deron Shady on Friday, June 01, 2012 - 11:57 pm:

I sure hope not!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 12:37 am:

Exactly how long did this guy expect this engine to last? Shoddy workmanship is one thing but you'd blow this mess up backing out of you garage. They couldn't have expected it to last a day. It's beyond belief that some one would even let an engine go out in this condition.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 02:26 am:

LOL my engine is probably almost that bad. So are they sure this is the engine they fixed or was it on a shelf next to the one they fixed and they picked up the wrong one? Ever see MacGyver arc weld con'rods with jumperleads?.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 03:09 am:

J and M is smart to not mention names unless they wish to wind up in court for slander whether the issue at hand is true or not and I don't doubt that it is.
Defense lawyers aren't known for donating their services.
On the other hand, in my business, we saw crap work too but we kept that to ourselves.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 04:15 am:

I enjoy seeing these "HOLY SH##" threads with photos. Some of the things I have seen are just as bad and I have had people not believe me when I tell them. So ,again, I like to see some of the stuff others find.
I would not fault them for not naming names. On another current thread, I declined to name the current owner of a specific car because I do not have permission to give his name on open forum. I know a couple dozen other people do know who it is, but I do not consider that to be the same as "well known". If it were well known, I would pass along the information. I do not know if the current owner wants it well known or not. I understand the reasoning. For some one who really may need to know, it can be handled off open forum.
I, too, would like to know who did that work, if in fact they did. But it would mostly be out of morbid curiosity. I am not likely to ever send an engine to the East coast to be rebuilt.
I could see that engine going more than 1000 easy miles. For most T owners, that could be the next twenty years.

My dad used to love to tell the story of a fellow crossing the continent shortly after WWII. He limped into Elko NV in a Ch##y six with a badly knocking rod. He had to get to Los Angeles for a job in a couple days and was near broke (over 1000 miles to go). The local machine shop said he could get it running on six in a couple hours. Guaranteed for five minutes, or the sidewalk, whichever came first.
Price and conditions agreed upon. He re-cut the crankshaft in the car (I have an original era tool to do that). Put a rebuilt un-sized rod in his big vise (new Babbitt and all) and squeezed it narrow to fit the grossly undersized crank. He cut most of the bolt holes off the rod and cap, then re-drilled for straight. He then cut the Babbitt to fit the crank. The engine was reassembled, and the weary traveler sent on his way with warnings.
A week later, he received a post card simply saying "Made it! Thank you."
Sorry for being so long winded/fingered.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will,, Trenton,,,New Jersey on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 07:40 am:

Here’s my side of it. I’m not a fan of naming names and J & M did not mention any names. It’s just poor policy. On the other side I shelled out close to $8,000.00 in an engine rebuild and got a crap job and a years worth of lame excuses so I can feel this customers pain very well. No it wasn’t from GenIII. From my understanding GenIII out sourced a lot of his machine work, With his inability to be able to stand behind his high written standards and I have to wonder if that’s where his trouble started.

If your going to get an engine done don’t be like me and jump at the first guy you hear from, Do some research.

On other point I like to see others work and hear from there customers. Seeing these photos are a warning but at the same time we don’t know how that engine was used and treated after it went back to the customer. From what I understand this engine was bought from the widow of the gentleman that used it so there is no way of knowing what was used for lubricants or if is was ever run low on oil or over heated at any time. It’s imposable to control engine quality once is leave your hands. It’s not hard to spot a customers mishandles from bad work. Also there are problems that cant be for seen, Babbitt dose fall out sometimes, it happens. But then the builder has to bit the bullet and do it again and the customer needs to understand.

In my case it took close to a year to get my car back and when I did there were so my issues I felt there was no need in returning my car just to lose it for another year and still have it come back with problems and more excuses of why it took so long.

I have no problem with a competent builder showing photo’s of work being preformed on a customers engine. I think it should be encouraged. In this case it shows that this builder has the experience to be able to see the problems before those problems are reinstalled back into the engine.

Ever since I’ve contacted J & M machine to redo my engine I’ve been contacted by other builders. The competition for are dollar is higher than some may think. I still feel that J &M will get my work in the end but there will be a written contract this time stating what they will do, How long it will take and how they will stand behind there work. My feeling is if there unwilling to do that then there not 100% sure of the quality there work.

My car is a large investment to me and it’s getting larger all the time. At this point I know that I will never come even close to getting back out of my car to what I have invested into it. So years of service will have to be close enough for me.

Bottom line is you can show off your finished work in high gloss photos to the world but in the end it’s what’s inside the engine makes it a engine that will serve you for many years and that’s where the difference is. A good competent builder will have Timely service, Product, Quality, Honesty and Timely warrantee service and a written statement that spells out there mission statement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Alex Brown on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 07:54 am:

J & M- thanks for sharing-you can't win them all-I shared a bad experience on this forum some time back and got torn to shreds so stopped posting for quite a long time... but even if it saves one T guy making the same mistakes it has to be worth sharing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 08:00 am:

I agree with you Will, but the way I read J&M's post, the engine had never ran.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 09:45 am:

Well stated Alex!
All we can do is put the information its up to the audience how they use it......
A certain group of folks on here is very opinionated no matter if your intent is to help the hobbyist or hurt the business of a substandard shop or vendor.
If it was me doing the posting the builders name would have been in bold text!
And then I would go on about my rat killing and not get caught up in everyone's opinions. I say never shoot the messenger they are only trying to help no matter how the post is worded.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 10:29 am:

This is an outstanding lesson on checking out the person doing engine work from more than one source and learning you dont always get what you pay for.
I learned that paying a big price for engine work isnt always whats its cracked up to be. I had a short T block built up a few years ago and it didnt quite work out the way that I hoped but it does run good with no problems. So what can I say.
I have had better luck doing things myself when I can.
The last engine I put together was an engine with good babbitt and good used parts other than the pistons and valves. To me it runs just as smooth and quite for a T as one that cost 4000.00 from a shop. I guess I was lucky.
The good rebuilders are out there. Its gets down to who do you trust and good overall second opinions from several sources.
I dont have gold lined pockets and just "send things out" so I have learned over the years to do things myself when I can.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By J and M Machine Co Inc on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 12:29 pm:

The main reason of all this is information and that's what this forum is for.

I've mentioned this to the owner of this engine and he can tell you who did it.

We've seen engines from around the country and poor workmanship is common.
This one took the cake. Even we were surprised so I thought to share it with the rest of you.

As I have mentioned is; to know your rebuilder and know the quality of work he does. If he does a good job then stick with him.

The same can be said for any one in any trade.

There's a famous commercial saying of Sy Symms' "An educated consumer is our best customer"
That saying says alot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Milton,WA on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 01:10 pm:

A "good" education is not free. Any opportunity to educate one's self prior to any endeavor that results in an expenditure of a considerable amount of money, I would consider be a wise investment. There are numerous, shoddy "experts" in every profession and/or hobby - do your homework !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joseph Magedanz on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 03:01 pm:

Steve,
Regarding a "good" education:

Good judgement comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgement...

Live and learn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 03:07 pm:

You've got to take names as they say. At least that's what I've gotten from this post. If a re-builder isn't willing to give a prospective customer former clients names/ ph. numbers (with their permission of course) In order to check his reliability & workmanship just take a hike. Check, check, check!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 03:09 pm:

Caveat emptor ALWAYS applies.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 03:12 pm:

A fool does not learn from his mistakes.
A smart man does learn from his mistakes.
A wise man learns from the mistakes of others.

Thank you again for sharing this. Regardless of the discourse.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Brumfield on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 06:37 pm:

In my opinion anybody with an ounce of common sense would be grateful to know the name of any crooked engine rebuilder or supplier out there so as to avoid being a victim of their dishonest business practices.

As for any worry of being sued; from what I know of it, as long as the information being posted is the truth, the First Amendment of the Constitution is often problematic for people trying to establish that they have been defamed because the fact that the information is true is an absolute defense to defamation. If, after either printing or saying something about someone, you can prove that what has been said is truthful there will be no liability for defamation.

So if you get ripped off then name names and speak the truth.... Honest people will be glad you did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary H. White - Sheridan, MI on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 09:36 pm:

Only problem is it can be quite expensive defending your self in court from slander charges even if you can prove what you said was true. Being right is one thing. Paying to prove it is something else.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 10:06 pm:

That's exactly what I was getting at.

Right or wrong it CAN cost PLENTY.
Judges view any hint of affecting "future earning capacity" VERY $eriou$ly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Greg sarky K on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 10:19 pm:

In Massachusetts, there is small claims court. You don't need a lawyer. Show up and tell your story. You can get a judgement of up to 7000.00. Of course , then the guy can go bankrupt if he loses.

Or if you can prove that you, the customer, was defrauded and that no real rebuild was done,and there was never any intention of doing a legitimate rebuild, that would be fraud which is exempted from bankruptcy discharge.

So its worth a shot in small claims court...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, June 02, 2012 - 11:11 pm:

The problem with Smalls Claims Court is actually GETTING your money.
The court can issue a judgment but collecting may cost more than the judgment as the court does not collect or disburse any funds.
So if the defendant doesn't pay you can hire a collection agency, a lawyer, or both who will be only too happy to bleed you dry.
It's the American way!....... :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Brumfield on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 12:18 pm:

Sorry guys, I don't agree.

Talk to any competent attorney and they will tell you that defamation lawsuits are impossible to win if it turns out that the statements the other person made are true or the statements they made were presented as opinion. Moreover, the American consumer has such a disdain for being ripped off by poor workmanship, dishonest dealing and downright fraud, etc. that any engine builder would have an extremely hard time claiming defamation after trying to pass off things such as cracked crankshafts and welded bent connecting rods as being rebuilt good quality. People with the least of knowledge could see it right off and those with basic engine knowledge would probably laugh.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 01:02 pm:

The devil is always in the detail. If the customer told the builder "I just want to get running so I can sell it" then he got what he came for.

Like it or not there are some unscrupulous folks out there willing to give you just what you want.

If however, the customer requested a quality rebuild, then this is fraud. Industry standards clearly were not met on this rebuild and the re-builder would have a hard time proving they were.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 01:16 pm:

I kind of disagree with the just get it running statement John mainly because I don't think this mess would last long enough to get it out of the garage. Personaly, I would NEVER give my engine to a re-builder without references AND asking on this Forum for opinions before handing it over. The most annoying thing about the T engine, (my opinion), is that I can't rebuild it myself in my garage if crank bearings are NG. I'd have to send it out and I don't want to. Don't name the re-builder. Frankly it's too late. People want it NOW (or yesterday at the latest) and just jump at the closest re-builder available.I'll bet this fellow didn't check a thing except location and price.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 02:12 pm:

Charlie,

The reason I mentioned the "just get it running " statement is because of J&M,s comment that the customer "just purchased it". From that comment, I assumed from someone other than the builder. That's why I mentioned the devil being in the detail.

It seem to me that there is more to this story than we know.

How any builder could pass on that collection of trash as a competent rebuild is beyond me!

It just seems very odd.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Brumfield on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 02:26 pm:

Basically true, Mr. Semprez, but the hand written receipt information represented what one would naturally associate with a quality engine. Of course J&M doesn't say who wrote it or if the widow had any real knowledge but nevertheless the information accompanied the sale as a representation of this particular engine.


     


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 04:39 pm:

It might be possible that there was confusion that the widow got the engines mixed up and thought this was the engine that had been rebuilt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 05:22 pm:

The first photo shows a new un-run piston hanging on that stuffed bearing rod! I don'i think confusion, just a con.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve McClelland on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 07:05 pm:

J&M Machine ....
Sometimes it just don't pay to try to help, last post on this subject for me, I build my own motors so chances of this ever effecting me is zero.
But I for one still appreciate your post, Thanks for the heads up this matter. I know you will save someone in the hobby a lot of money.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By roy palmer on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 07:30 pm:

To J and M:

It seems like, "No good deed goes unpunished"

We should all want the best guys posting their expertise on this forum.

What better purpose could the forum serve than to have all the best experts in their field offering their advice, opinions and experience on these boards? That's how we learn. That's how we know the better way to do things.That's how we see the difference between good or bad.

Not only does J and M offer their opinion but they prove what they are saying by photos and direct statements of what actually happened with the particular engine. Cant ask for more than that. So if it only shows you what NOT to do, its a great help.

I have seen many others offering great advice and posting photos too. In every case,it can only help. It also allows for discussion among experts and professionals which can only help those who are not so knowledgeable.

All who have posted similar helpful comments should please continue to do so.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Sunday, June 03, 2012 - 11:50 pm:

To J&M. Either this is a hoax or an incredible fraud... maybe both? Thanks for posting this abomination. It should be a lesson for us all to look first before we jump!


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