What's the story? Kelsey demountable rim / wheel

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: What's the story? Kelsey demountable rim / wheel
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Aber on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 02:06 pm:

I own a late 23/early 24 ForDor and all five rims are as pictured. They were made by the Kelsey Co. and mine are dated 2/12/24. The question is, all the other cars of that era seem to have the traditional for lugs welded on while mine have the four slots with the bolt on lugs. Is this a wheel that Henry tried and did away with? I have been driving on them since 1972 and they stay on, but do look more "delicate" than the more common rims.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Aber on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 02:10 pm:

Here is the image referred to above:
Kelsey


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 02:20 pm:

There are definitely other types with cleats that are more like you'd see on modern trucks. Much smaller of course. The rims have no welded wheel nut brackets on them and they are smooth. Had 2 such rims on a former'23 Touring. Had a hell of a time finding spare cleats for them. The lug nut was part of the cleat. Don't know the manif.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 02:24 pm:

Bill, my '24 Touring has the same lugs as you have. It was at least six or seven years before I realized that most other Ts I saw had the welded ones. I had never paid any attention.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 03:27 pm:

I have a pair of rims on my 25 that have removable lugs (no welded brackets). I think mine are Hayes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 05:37 pm:

That was started in 1919.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 08:12 pm:

Bill, all our Canadian sourced cars had those rims until 1925, when for that one year we had the welded lug type rims familiar to most US cars.
Those rims will not happily interchange with welded lug type wheel felloes, which are a slightly smaller diameter. The loose lug forces the rim to bind on the outer edge of the felloe. This cant happen on the welded felloe types.

However, welded lug rims will happily mount up to the loose lug felloes, provided they are not the type with the foot on the lug which goes on over the felloe.

Just for interest.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 09:36 pm:

William -- when you have a chance please take a closer look at your wheels that have the removable lugs. I have not yet seen or heard of Hayes producing the "loose lug" style -- but I'm always open to learning something new or another exception.

Bill -- if you took any photos of the manufacture's name etc. would you please send me a copy and/or post them? There actually were several different "loose lug" wheels & rims that were offered by Ford USA on their cars. The Kelsey felloes have a slot on the felloe where the lug presses against the fellow and also a raised spot on the rim where the lug presses against the rim. In some parts of the country some of the Branch Assembly plants apparently used more of one style wheel and rim than another. I have never seen a Cleveland or Firestone "lose lug" but they are plentiful in some areas.

Ford made all of his suppliers make that same style wheel and rim starting around Mar 7, 1924 but there is a great summary at: ref http://mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels .

See also: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/92314.html?1242971377

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Aber on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 09:51 pm:

Hap, what you described above is exactly what I have. The lettering is barely visible but I saw what appeared to be ...sey, a manufacturing date which matches my car engine year, and a pat.pending notice. The link above shows that HF was serious at one point about using that kind of rim fastening, even standardizing the various suppliers. I wonder why, therefore, almost every car I see contemporary with mine has the welded lugs and I have never seen another car with my type rim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 10:36 pm:

Bill, I have a similar drawing to the one you posted which appears to show the slots you mentioned.
kelsey12
These I think are the ones Allan is refering to
felloe06
they have the rim with a similar stamped out shoulder for the lugs, the Felloes have been punched to make a shoulder unlike the ones in your picture which just clamp under the inside of the felloe.

I notice also the spokes in your picture have caps on the end another difference.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 07:08 am:

Bill, Hap, Peter, I missed some details in Bill's posted photo/litho. I have never seen caps on the spokes like that. Peter, your last photo shows the type of loose lug I had in mind. They vary from the ones in Bill's post in that they are square all about rather than tapered as they go over the felloe.

However, I missed noticing in both photos that the rim shown has two ledges, one binding on each side of the felloe. Again, I have never seen this.
All the rims I have seen have just the outside ledge. The U shaped loose lug rests against the slot in the felloe and against this ledge. The base of the rim is flat as shown. In peter's second photograph, that rim with the slot to accommodate the foot of the lug will have a groove rolled into the rim rather than have a solid ledge around it. This rolled groove binds on the felleo like the solid ledge of the Kelsey type. The grooved rim slot allows water into the rim, causing rust problems. These rims are more likely to be rusted thin and they suffer more if the lug is not done up tight, as the slot wears more quickly and the lug loses tension. I have never seen a grooved rim with the Kelsey brand, believing the grooved ones were Hayes manufacture because they are the same as the fixed lug type with the Hayes brand on the lug.

Hap, I think it is time I took a heap of photos for you to show what I have had experience of. I believe I can email them to you easier than posting them here.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 07:55 am:

For Bill,

Minor correction -- Henry Ford did standardize the wheel and rims but not to the Kelsey lose lug but to the Hayes fixed lug style. Ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels from the March 7, 1924 letter:

“The necessary changes have been made in the Kelsey wheel and rims also the Firestone and Cleveland rims so that with the exception of a few Kelsey wheels which are still to be shipped, we will have but one wheel and one rim for production, even though they are being shipped from three different sources. The felloe band on the Kelsey wheel has been changed so that it is exactly the same dimension as the Ford, Hayes, or Motor wheel and a car could be built with one wheel of each make. The rims have been changed to the ‘attached lug’ type and a car could be built using one rim of each Hayes, Kelsey, Motor Wheel, and Firestone."

Reading an earlier paragraph in the same section of the Encyclopedia you could interpret it either way -- but the letter clearly states -- fixed lug style.

For Allan -- yes, please send photos and hopefully with some comments/explanations of what is what. Or only send the one style wheel/rim combination in a single e-mail. That will help prevent me accidently mixing and matching the wrong pictures together. If you click on my name at the beginning of this or any posting, my e-mail address is the third line done. Please limit any single e-mail to 10kb or less. Higher resolution photos are great -- as they allow zooming in to look for stamped letters etc.

I am surprised you have not seen more of the style fellow with both edges flared (bent over at an angle). I'm 90% sure that was the standard wheel supplied by Ford of Canada up until 1925. Most of the Kelsey wheels that I know of are of that construction. But note the comment from the encyclopedia that Ford directed Kelsey to supply the "Hayes" style wheel starting in 1924. So those probably were produced and would look like the one below
[taken from the Foot Hills Model T Club newsletter -- I need to obtain their permission but I'm 99% sure they won't mind]
No problem Hap, I got them from somewhere else anyway! Chris B



Note I'm 90% sure the Kelsey Wheel illustration was updated over time. Note the valve stem, spokes, and the lettering on the tire are all in the exact same location. Only the type nuts/lugs and the ends on the spokes appear to have been updated/changed.

So much more still to discover! Thank you all for adding your insight and experience to gathering the data.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 08:47 am:

I recently bought a 1924 restored T. It took me awhile to discover that it had Kelsey wheels with Hayes rims. They don't work together. The rim will not center on the wheel even though the bolts seem to go through the rim and wheel. It makes for a very interesting uneven ride to say the least.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 02:26 pm:

Caution - possible thread drift....

EXCELLENT cutaway wheel/tube/tire pictures showing the reason for tire flaps (see how the tube is ever so slightly protruding down between the tire beads?).

Consider that when mounting (or dismounting) the tire, should the tube be really squeezed between the beads while the beads are being squished together to go over the rim and fall into the clincher crevice, the tube may be pinched enough to weaken it and cause a leak. The installation of the heavy tire flaps will prevent this occurrence.

Additionally, "Duct tape" or similar rim liner will merely be wrapped around the rim, and will have absolutely no effect on preventing pinched tubes!

The pictures were really too good to pass on this ramble....apologies to those offended by the drift.

Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 03:44 pm:

Well, I went outside and looked. My rear wheels with the fixed (welded) lugs are Hayes.

The front removable lugs are marked 27 T-N and V 11. One of them has an E on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 05:57 pm:

Allan, I have some of the Kelsey rims made for the loose lug style wheel. There are two styles, one with the solid ridge around it where the lug seats, and one that has a rolled ridge similar to a Hayes rim, but with the punched out lip(similar to a louver) that is cut clear through as you described. Both styles are clearly marked Kelsey NO. 88. I don't know which one came first, or if they were made at the same time, or? As far as the ones with the punched out lip, I put a dab of RTV sealer on the inside of the rim to keep the water out. Worked great. Maybe that style was first, and the other style came out later because of the water problem. Just a WAG. As for the lugs, I have some of both styles as in the last picture, both of them are marked K.NO.88. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 07:57 pm:

Hap, will do the photos when I can corral a son or two. I may have lead you astray. I was referring to not having seen two ledges on the rim, NOT the felloe. The photos/lithos show the Rim having two locating ledges, one engaging on each edge of the felloe.

All the 23" felloes I have seen do have two lips on the felloes, both being rolled to the inside of the car ie. the outer one rolls into the felloe, the inner one rolls out of the felloe towards the centre of the car.

The 21" felloes on our 26 cars had no roll on the outside edge of the felloe,like the red one in your post.

Peter showed a felloe with both edges rolled to the outside. This was done on the 21" Hayes wire wheels used as accessories on Ts. The 23" Hayes wire wheels have the same felloe as the standard 23" wheel.

Sorry for the confusion.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - 08:43 am:

Allan,

Thank you for the clarification. We are trying to capture the information accurately for an article with Steve.

Below are the profiles of 5 types of Rims used on the USA cars. The Kelsey rim would have been similar on the Canadian cars. These are from the Jan 1924 USA Ford Service Bulletin so they would not include the 21 inch rims at that time. Are any of those like the rims you are describing and if so which one?



For Mr. R. S. Cruickshank -- Not sure what name you would prefer to be address by so I started with the full name. Just let us know and we will use your preference. If your Hayes style rims are like the 2845B above and have the foot on the lug that is inside the diameter of the rim, you can sometimes get then to fit some of the Kelsey style felloes. Some have had success in putting a depression in the felloe so the Hayes lug does not contact the fellow before the rear section of the rim seats on the felloe. The best choice would be to have the compatible same felloes and rims but modifying the felloe would probably be saver than the set up you described. Below is a fellow that has those depressions from the factory I believe. I am still trying to figure out which style this wheel really is for -- but it illustrated the idea of a depression on the outside flange so the Hayes lug does not prevent the rim from seating fully. Hopefully you can visualize what I am describing.




Disclaimer -- Ford clearly said in an earlier Ford Service Bulletin DO NOT MIX THE RIMS AND WHEELS FROM DIFFERENT COMPANIES -- specifically the Kelsey and Hayes. [That has been posted several times but I cannot locate it at the moment.] But other forum posting indicate that the Hayes fixed lugs have been used successfully on the Kelsey felloes. Note running some of the loose lug rims on a Hayes style felloe will result in the valve stem being cut because the rim rotates. That could cause a major accident if it happened at the wrong time and place.

So much more to document. Thank you all for your help!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Richard Bennett on Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - 09:57 am:

Hap, the top rim, noted as Kelsey #2485 is the usual one found to be still in good order. The Ford 2845C is also found. These have the slot cut into the rolled groove to accept the foot on the loose lug. This slot admits water and causes rust inside the rim. From the drawings, the Hayes rolled groove appears narrower. I will have to check on this. I do not recall ever seeing a rim with the groove being branded with Kelsey.

Hope this helps.

Allan from down under.

.


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