Model T Frame Differences - 1916 Model Year?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Model T Frame Differences - 1916 Model Year?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 09:11 pm:

My grandfather collected extra parts that I will inherit this summer when I pick up his 1916 Coupelet. There is a extra frame that I will get. I'm just wondering if all model t frames of the same year are the same? Or is there a difference between a frames on the various models.

If there is no difference I'm going to refurb the extra frame and transfer components as I proceed with the preservation.

Thanks,

Philip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 09:18 pm:

Philip,

While any 1909-1925 frame will "function" with any 1909-1925 body, the frames changed over time. See: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/C-D.htm#Chassis1 scroll down a little for some details on the 1909-1927 frame changes. Once you obtain the frame, if you post some photos folks can help you ID the year range.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 09:37 pm:

1915 and 1916 coupelets are among the rarest and and most desirable Model Ts.

You are very fortunate that your car is complete, unrestored and fairly unmolested.

You can really debase the value (historical and monetary) by swapping the original parts from your coupelet with those from other cars, even mundane parts such as the frame.

Unless a particular part is completely beyond repair, you should consider keeping all the original components of your coupelet intact, even the original frame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 11:15 pm:

Philip -- I agree with Eric. Unless there is a major problem with the frame now under the car, I'd suggest leaving it there. The restoration of an automobile is a major undertaking, and I can see the desirability of wanting to do it the easy way. But as Eric has said, the car with which you are about to be entrusted is a very rare one, and it deserves the best you can give it. It is a rare situation to find a mostly-complete original Model T to work with, and most of us here have never had that opportunity. Try to keep all the parts together that came with the car originally, unless there is some valid reason not to. Convenience is not a valid reason in this case.

Of course it is only human to want to hurry up and get the car back on the road. Try to resist that urge. Go into this project expecting it to take several years, because it will if you do any kind of job at all. The restoration of a Coupelet will take a lot of time and a lot of money.

If you don't want (or can't afford) to do a full-blown restoration at this point, that's OK too. There is a lot to be said for having the car on the road where it belongs and where you can enjoy driving it. But at the very least, please do no harm to it during that time. You can get it to the point mechanically where it is a reliable driver, and save the (expensive) cosmetic restoration until a later date. And if you choose that avenue, you can be learning more about the car and about restoration techniques while you are enjoying driving the car in the meantime. That process might take more time, but it probably will net you a better-quality car in the end. There's no hurry.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Monday, June 04, 2012 - 11:17 pm:

Sorry, I meant Erik, not Eric.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 12:34 am:

I may be the crazy one here? Most of the cars that I have restored (resurrected), did not offer the option of using all the original parts. But in cases where I could, I tried to use all the original pieces I could. Even the original bolts when I could.
The first boat-tail roadster I had some years ago, had been rolled and was in very bad condition. Only part of the original windshield frame and mounting brackets remained. One side bracket was intact. The other was only half there. I matched the material as well as the steel supply place could, and welded a piece on to the remaining half just so I could have that much more of the original windshield on the car.
The car you have is much more special than my after-market bodied boat-tail. You should do the best restoration that you can to honor the car, your grandfather, and yourself.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 09:34 am:

Philip -- Wayne touched on an important part of restoring a Model T, the re-use of original bolts and nuts. As you get into this project, you will discover that the bolts and nuts used on Model T's are very different from modern ones. Save all the original hardware which is reusable. If some of them are not reusable, try to get correct ones to match from another T'er. Clean the parts with a wire brush wheel, and they will shine like new. Then if you want to do a first-class job, have them blued by a gunsmith or use a metal blackening solution available from Eastwood. The devil is in the details.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 10:33 am:

If you've been around T's for awhile, you will know what original bolts look like. I recently assembled a 1925 roadster p/u out of parts, and used all original Ford bolts and nuts to put it together with. It just makes me feel better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Huson, Berthoud, Co. on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 10:40 am:

Philip Berg:

Frames went through a lot of changes over the T years. The 16 frames at least the late 16 changed the mounting of the fire wall brackets. The late 16 and maybe earlier had the fire wall brackets bolted on the side of the frame. But kept the empty earlier fire wall bracket holes on top, even though they didn't use them. Another change in 1919 holes were drilled towards the back sides for the battery carrier. I would not worry too much about the extra bolt holes. In this part of the country almost ALL frames that are not under a car were off a trailer. ALMOST ALL FARMS AROUND HERE had a trailer made from T frames because they were straight. The frames always have extra bolt holes drilled into them by the farmers to hold the trailer bed. If you do decide to use the extra frame make sure it is straight.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 11:10 am:

You could piece together a running drivetrain, and place your body on it to drive and enjoy while you restore all of the ORIGINAL pieces separately.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 12:17 pm:

From my original post two years ago I've decided to stabilize and clean the vehicle not restore it.

With this in mind I have to figure out how to do this with limited resources (small garage, kids in college etc). If I can use this spare frame which might be a couplelet frame it will save me many hours of driving to my dad's to work on the t. I have no plans do alter the vehicle. If I do use the spare frame the original frame is not going anywhere.

I would actually use it eventually do a full restoration later on (at least ten years from now).

So with that let's all take a deep breath and relax. Trust me that before I even lay a wrench on the t I'll have project plan in place.

Keeping the coupelet as Henry built is my goal and I think my mom will keep me on track. She's been pretty adamant about keeping it original and doing a thorough inventory of the vehicle and spare parts grandpa had. This was her father's car so it is very special to her.

Philip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 02:51 pm:

Philip

Just had to look again at your PhotoBook pics on the lovely couplet you posted earlier.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/288230.html?1337279557#POST431430

As for the extra frame, your pics show it enough to see it is probably a correct year frame, and appears to be nice and straight, note the early cast running board bracket holes, and no other holes along the rear channels.



Looking more at some of these photos, a fun task would be to really get involved in finding the more correct parts to place on this fine original, that are missing/incorrect now.


The front end may be a later axle, the front spring is much later, should be a 'taper'-leaf variety, and the spring hangers to the front perches are later. There are the correct 'man-hole' covered oilers on the spindles, nice, these are very hard to find. The crank handle is later, and an early style should be found.

But.....oh what a lovely T you have now.



Would be fun to add the correct parts, clean and prep, wrap the original tatter top in some non-injuring covering, go thru the running gear, and take the T out and drive a bit, and show it off as is :-) Just my opinion.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 03:06 pm:

Exactly :-). If you look at those pictures there is a pile of front end parts, a rear differential and a hogshead.

A family friend told me he thought the car had been in an accident sometime in the past but neither my mom or uncle know of this (maybe I should ask). By the different front axle I'd guess at some point previous to my grandfather purchasing the vehicle it was in some type of altercation. I hope in those extra parts my grandpa collected he has the correct period parts.

Philip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 05:12 pm:

If your T is a late 15, the front end is correct, that was the start of the square off ends and 6 leaf spring and flip top oilers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 06:14 pm:

Kerry

Looking close at that right side clipped leaf spring I see an oiler hole, making this spring after 1917, appears to be a 7 leaf.

As for the clipped left 1st version, those were in the USA made May 1916, then Oct. '16 the normal 6 leaf non-taper, then 1917 the 7 leaf. Per B.McCalley works.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 06:31 pm:

Philip:

Do you know the engine number for the car or the ship date based upon it? I was simply wondering if it was an early car or later one.

My son has a 1916 Roadster that is basically unrestored except we did pull the engine and overhaul it since it was really tired. The rest of it is somewhat unmolested with original upholstery and such. It is an early 1916 having been built on or about Christmas eve of 1915 as I recall.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 06:41 pm:

My opinion is that you should reconsider your planned approach regardless if you conserve the car or do a full restoration at a later date.

Cleaning, conserving, preserving and making mechanical adjustments and repairs in order to get the car running should not require removing the body from the frame or dismantling the car and transferring everything to a different frame.

The front spring may or may not be correct (I won't get into the details) and the spring shackles are later (a common replacement that may have occurred during original service or replaced by your grandfather) but otherwise the front axle, perches, radius rod, etc. are correct for your car.

I don't see a hogshead in the pile of parts - I do see a pan.

I thought you had the original motor for the car, serial number 958,574.

Here is your post from January 2011 MTFCI Forum including more preaching from me and others.

http://modelt.org/discus/messages/2/28813.html?1304233977


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 06:46 pm:

Whoops - I meant to type motor number 970533 - not sure where I got 958574 when I was poring over the old posts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 06:52 pm:

To John Regan:

The photos show a much later block with a generator.

Philip indicated that there was a motor in storage that is most likely the original motor for the car. The serial number is 970533 which makes it November 1915. I don't have the Bruce's black book in front of me so I can't provide the exact date.

I am not particularly knowledgeable about coupelets but I assume that the bodies were not put on the chassis on the regular assembly line along with tourings and roadsters. A November 1915 motor number certainly would make it a 1916 model, also indicated by the portholes in the folding top.

Who knows if there was any lag time between the assembly of the motor and chassis and the placing of an enclosed car body on the chassis.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 06:55 pm:

The 1916 model and fiscal year is from 856,514 to 1,362,813. The casting date on this car is probably in late November 1915 which is about 3 months into 1916 model year production.

I would strive to make it as close to 1916 model year / November 1915 production typical details as possible if it were mine. Which ever frame - and every other part of the car - fits that data is the one to use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 06:57 pm:

Dear Phil, before you touch anything please, please photograph every detail and get the photos through to our club and Hap for our data base. Under the bonnet, in the turtle deck, under the seat, under the mudguards, trim, roof lining, fuel tank, brackets, wiring, firewall, I mean every detail you can think of.

I have no idea how original the car is, it looks damn fine to me, but photographing these details from surviving original cars is the only way we can learn about our great hobby.

Is there someone near Phil that can help with this? What a truly beautiful find.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Philip Berg on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 07:47 pm:

Yes I plan to spend a weekend on photo documenting the car. I'll gladly provide them to anyone who asks. I also plan to shoot video.

In my original post I think the serial number for the engine in the box is posted. I haven't even seen that engine. It must be stored up high somewhere, I've only seen one box full of model t small parts as I would call them. July 4th week is the pick up date by the way.

My reasoning behind separating the body/frame is thoroughly clean any loose rust from underneath the car; use the extra frame (cleaned) to mount the running gear as I preserve/repair. Remember guys I'm doing this in my dad's garage so out of respect to him I cannot get his pristine garage filthy.

I don't have to separate the frame/body it's just an idea.

Philip


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kerry van Ekeren (Australia) on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 08:40 pm:

Dan,
I can't say what would be right for the US models other than what parts books show, how ever our Canadian T's fall in to the same description that the forum encyclopedia shows, late 15 was the transition to 6 leave squared end springs for the front, mine and other T's of the same years are like this, my US 1917 parts book, shows the intro of the 7 leaf and also has the curled ends on the 4th leaf to fit the spring retainer clip up the other way, the 15/16 has the clip facing down like Phillips car, of course his could be a mix of parts over the years but other than an oil hole, I think is still period correct.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard Paulsen, San Buenaventura, Calif on Tuesday, June 05, 2012 - 10:02 pm:

One of the most beautiful Model T's I have ever seen in my life. I would only get it up to snuff mechanically, but leave it untouched otherwise. I'm having wet dreams about finding a car like this and taking care of it until the day I die. It's not one in a million, but most likely one in a few hundred thousand, given the amount of Coupelets manufactured versus the amount of unmolested survivors.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, June 06, 2012 - 12:09 am:

There is plenty that can be accomplished without dismantling the car. Frankly, much of it would probably be a waste of time. If you have moved the car to good dry storage, I would not be concerned about the rust on the undercarriage.

Below are photos of my unrestored roadster before and after cleaning and detailing, etc. When I originally acquired the car, prior to bringing it home and parking it in the garage I had the chassis, running gear and engine compartment steam cleaned to remove a lot of road dirt and grease and grime. At home, I spent time on the running gear, frame and motor with mineral spirits and rags, a wire brush and a scraper. For the body, I used soap and water, mineral spirits, denatured alcohol, fine polishing compound, etc. followed by carnuba wax.

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