Crystal Timer Ring + A Possible Remedy for Pot Metal Woes?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Crystal Timer Ring + A Possible Remedy for Pot Metal Woes?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Friday, June 08, 2012 - 01:43 pm:

They say that necessity is the mother of invention. I believe that that is true.

Recently, I was given a NOS Crystal Timer, and I have every intention of it putting on my T. I know that old Crystal Timers themselves work pretty well, but the old pot metal ring and rotor can have problems (and they usually do) or crumble all together. The ring is often swollen and the glass piece will no longer fit snuggly, and the ring often won't fit on the timing cover of a T! I decided to see if I could make the old ring work well instead of purchasing a new aluminum ring, especially because I'm a poor college student. I'll be keeping an Anderson Timer in my T as a spare just in case!

To tackle the rotor, I purchased a New Day rotor and lengthened it a little less than an 1/8" of an inch so the contacts would seat squarely in the Crystal Timer. I decided to see if I could reinforce the old rotor and keep it as a spare, really more for fun than anything else. I wanted to see if I could solder it, but my soldering iron just didn't have enough heat.

This is where the possible pot metal remedy comes in!

To help the solder flow (if it would at all), I tried preheating the rotor with my micro torch. After giving it some heat, I noticed a huge number of tiny little beads of metal about the size of a grain of sand formed at the surface, having oozed out of the metal! Moreover, it did not at all damage the metal. I assume that those tiny beads were lead, but I don't know for sure. Could that be the impurity that causes pot metal to swell and crack over time? I kept heating the rotor until no more beads formed and then brushed them all off.

I decided to do something crazy and try it on the ring. My little torch certainly wouldn't do it, so I put it in the kitchen oven and baked it at 500 degrees for half-an-hour. After that time had passed, it was the same story. Countless sand-sized beads formed on the surface of the ring without damaging it at all. Once the ring cooled down, I brushed them off with a plastic brush.

If those metal beads that formed on the surface were the impurity that causes pot metal to have so many problems, maybe the pot metal will cease to swell and crumble further? Or at least it may slow the pot metal's decay. It certainly won't reverse it.

I don't know for sure if this process is effective in halting or slowing pot metal's decay, so if anyone has any input, or if any of you are willing to try this process on an already decaying (and therefore worthless) piece of pot metal, please let me know! I really would like to see if it works!

Back to the Crystal Timer

I finished my process and found that the structure integrity of the ring did not seem to change. However, I figured that it's still weak, so I reinforced it with three thin brass bands and a lot of cyanoacrylate glue. I put one 1/2" band, soldered at the seams, on the inside to reinforce the part of the ring where it sits in the timing cover. This should mostly keep it from crumbling inward. I put another 1/2" band, again soldered at the seam, on the outside to keep it from crumbling outward. There is an 1/8" wide band on inside of the top part of the ring to keep the top from crumbling inward and it ensures that the glass piece is held snuggly in place and is centered. The pot metal ring itself has been turned in a lathe so that it fits in the timing cover properly. I also reinforced the tab with JB Weld. Hopefully this ring will give years of reliable service!

Here are some pictures of the ring and glass piece. You can see that the glass piece fits snuggly inside the ring with no sideplay whatsoever. Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures of the ring or rotor going through "treatment."

Crystal Timer Modified Ring 1
Crystal Timer Modified Ring 2
Crystal Timer Modified Ring 3


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 08, 2012 - 08:18 pm:

Nice work Cameron! The Crystal timer looks like a sound design and should provide very accurate timing. I need to try one. The brush and contacts will need to be cleaned occasionally of course to keep performance at its best.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 01:33 am:

That's what I'm hoping for! As you know, I'm currently running my electronic coils, and the Anderson timer just doesn't seem to provide accurate enough timing for them.

Of course if the Crystal Timer works really well, I'll use it even after I get my magneto working again!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 06:44 am:

Is your timing cover perfectly centered? If not, that can really affect your inter cylinder timing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 02:44 pm:

Hal,

I did center the timing cover with the special alignment tool.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 03:49 pm:

Cameron, which alignment tool did you use?

Stephen

This one

http://www.modeltford.com/item/3221KRW.aspx

or this one

http://www.modeltford.com/item/3009T.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 04:46 pm:

The first one, except the one I used was an original (at least I think it was) KRW, not a reproduction. I found it lying around in one of the parts bins of the museum that I do volunteer work for.

Now the real reason that I'm installing the Crystal Timer is because it looks cool and unusual, not to improve spark timing. Also, a friend bought it for me in exchange for getting his T running again.

My engine always seems to run a little rough, and I felt that inaccurate spark timing was a likely suspect, but I never verified it. My car is stored about 100 miles away, and I really only get to tinker with it one or two days a month. If it runs smoother with the Crystal Timer, fantastic, but if it doesn't run any better (and I expected that it won't) I won't be disappointed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 02:16 am:

No offense to anyone, but it seems that this thread has moved away from the original topic. I know that it's very difficult to keep a thread on-topic without going on some tangent.

Does anyone have any thoughts about my "treatment" for pot metal? That's what I'm really interested in!

That, and I just wanted to share my attempt at making a more durable Crystal Timer ring!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George_Cherry Hill NJ on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 03:16 am:

Cameron,

Pot Metal was the ultimate 'recycle' of its day. Chances are no two places used the same recipe as it was all off cuts and leftovers re-smelted.

What the bubbles are is air as pot metal is actually a bit of swiss cheese to begin containing a lot of teeny tiny air bubbles even if the surface was lead rubbed in to make it 'smooth'. Sort of why it crumbles later when oxides start to form in the air spaces and then it gets to be connect the dots...

Anyway, with the oven at 500 degrees, the air got hot and started to gas out, and its the tin that was coming along with it if your beads were metallic, as all the other metals, including lead have a melting temp higher than 500. If the bubbles were colored it was stray phosphorus or sulphur that cooked out with the gas...these melt even lower than the tin.

With any pot metal you take your chances...but like you mention, nothing to lose...looks nice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 11:34 am:

The beads were shiny metallic for sure. I couldn't remember if lead or tin melted at temperatures than 500 degrees, but after looking it up, it turns out that tin melts right around 450 degrees, so it would make sense if the beads were tin. Again, I don't know if my "treatment" helped or hurt anything, but I won't know for sure unless I try it!

I figured that if I could reinforce the ring enough, hopefully it will never give me any problems. I polished the brass and it does look pretty for sure!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 12:39 pm:

My knowledge of pot metal is very limited, however, the pressure of die casting is what holds the amalgam together (so I've been told). If you've gotten this far without the part crumbling or growing, maybe you're on to something...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 06:49 pm:

Cameron

Your 'fix' should work, but if not long lasting, buy a new 'ring' for the Crystal from Bob Scherzer. His are made of nice anodized alum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 07:24 pm:

Antique phonographs,Lionel trains,Old car parts,Holley G carbs...they all have some form of pot metal parts on them.
I restore antique phonographs and music boxes,and I can shed some light on the pot metal problem.
Pot metal parts are injection molded similar to the way plastic parts are molded.This process made complex parts for(hobby item of choice inserted here)considerably cheaper to manufacture.Pot metal parts have been around since the 1890's as far as phonographs are concerned.
What wasn't known back then was that the powdered lead that was used to lubricate the dies and molds made it's way into the component parts.At the molecular level,the lead causes the rest of the recipe to slowly separate over the years.Lead makes a great dry mold release agent in a very hot situation where any liquid would not.
A particular example of a pot metal nightmare was in the manufacture of the U.S Everlasting phonograph made from about 1908-1910 in Ohio.The entire reproducer assembly is pot metal.
I've repaired many of these machines and some of the parts are junk and others are as sturdy as the day they were made.
Not all molds needed to be lubricated every cycle. Some molds can go for many cycles before more lead was needed to lubricate the die and release parts easily.
This is why not all pot metal parts suffer equally.Not all parts have equal amount of lead in them.Some have more than others.The problem wasn't discovered until later into the 1940's and 50's (my apologies on inaccurate dating here)when many car parts were also die cast.By this time,the problem was pretty much known, and solved.

It isn't the ravages of the weather, or bad storage in Grandma's attic,basement,barn, that destroys pot metal parts.
It's the lead.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 07:25 pm:

Also,
My compliments on the ingenuity used to fix the timer!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 01:00 am:

Thanks for your input!

My Edison Home Phonograph had a pot metal mandrel bearing that had swollen to the point that the mandrel was completely frozen. It took me forever to carefully chip it out so that I could replace it with a new brass one. Worked like a champ in the end, though!

I also know that the Orthophonics are famous for having pot metal backs on their reproducers that are often swollen to the point that the reproducer is useless. I have an el-cheapo reproducer off of some early portable, and the pot metal backing on it doesn't show the slightest signs of deterioration!

On a side note, does anyone know where I can get one of those aluminum rings? I contacted Bob and he says that he doesn't have any more of them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 01:40 am:

I cast up 4 of these rings the other day and now just need to machine and powder coat them. I just have too many irons in the fire these days to try and keep up. I will try and have a dozen more cast up in the next week or so. Will post here when can ship some more out to any still want one. Bob

timer ring

timer ring


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 03:33 am:

Excellent!

Put me down for one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 01:28 pm:

Cameron,
I want to thank you for this thread.
I have long wanted to try what you tried with pot metal in order to save things like fancy radiator caps or window cranks. It sounds as if baking at the proper temperature could possibly free up some of those frozen parts by forcing out contaminants. I, too, have always believed that the trouble was non-compatible metals such as lead, copper, or aluminum mixed with those they don't agree with.

Good luck with your education!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 02:07 pm:

Cameron, you must have a model C D or E Edison Home. I have an Edison standard model D. The mandrel was frozen and I spent about 2 hours slowly chipping away at the pot metal bushing until I finally got it apart. I bought a new bushing off of ebay and have been playing the machine since.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 02:15 pm:

Stephen,

It is a Model D, the first in the series to be equipped with factory 2/4 minute gearing. I know that it's possible to remove the mandrel and ream the pot metal bearing so that it will work again, but there's no telling for how long until the pot metal swells and seizes up the mandrel again. Getting the new bushing is the way to go!

My great grandfather bought it brand new in 1908, and it's been in the family ever since. I've always wanted it (especially because I'm a phonograph nut), and my dad finally gave it to me a few months ago in non-working condition. I had it playing in a week, and most of that time was waiting for parts!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 04:52 pm:

It never ceases to amaze me to how many phonograph enthusiasts are into old cars,or vise versa :-)
I don't collect now as much as I restore.
Here's some goodies I've looked after and/or restored over the years:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 05:23 pm:

Cameron I did replace the bushing. I just bought a model B home and installed 2/4 minute gearing. I play the machine almost every day. Sadly the mainspring broke in my Edison Standard and in my 1917 Victor VI Victrola. Just something else I need to fix. Phonographs

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Darren J Wallace on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 05:33 pm:

Cameron & Stephen:
You both have some great phonos and I love your T's on your profile photos. Glad to see more young guys in both these hobbies!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 06:03 pm:

Stephen,

The mainspring in my Edison was weak and I had to replace it. I've done mainsprings before, and I do it barehanded. The trick is to not let go of it for any reason! Oh, and I also restored a Victrola VI. It was my first attempt at a restoration. My Edison still has it's original finish and it's going to stay that way!

It's funny. I'm a 23 year-old college student, and this is what I do. I pretty much work on any sort of vintage/antique technology.

Edison Home Phonograph
Victor VI

And my thread is getting off topic again... Oh well!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 07:14 pm:

Bob I'll take two of your new rings for the crystal timer danuser88@ktis.net


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Nelson -------Eastern Iowa on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 10:45 pm:

Bob, I'll take one, too. How much?
Gene Nelson


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mikkel Posselt on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 03:32 pm:

Hi Bob
I am very interested in one of your rings. I hope you will make one for me too!. But I would prefer the raw casting and machine to fit myself - is this OK?
What is your price, and how do we proceed?
Kind regards
Mikkel


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Scherzer on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 10:22 pm:

I will go with $15 for the ring and shipping in the US.

On another subject of saving pot metal parts from further decay. I was told by a collector of old pot metal toys that he submerges his pieces in liquid nitrogen which causes the element that causes the swelling and break up to be removed by this process.

I have never given it a try but maybe someone here have heard of this method too. My second question to him was where do I get liquid nitrogen and he said he got his from a welding supply. It comes in a thermos bottle type container. Again I haven't checked any of this out but for some it might be worth looking into. Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 11:43 pm:

Cameron, I also do mainsprings barehanded. I have done the mainsprings in my Edison diamond disc machine. The motor has two 40 foot long mainsprings. I hope I don't have to do that again any time soon! I hope to get my Edison Standard and victor playing again soon, I just have been too lazy to order the springs. Did you swap cases on your Edison Home? The last machines to use the banner decal like yours was the model B series. When Edison came out with the model B machines in 1905 they used up the banner decals they had left over from the model A's. When they ran out in early 1906 they switched to the simple "Edison" decal. They used this on all later machines also. The base moulding is also different on the correct model D cabinets. Do you have model C and model H reproducers or a model K combination reproducer?

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 11:58 pm:

Stephen, I have a model K reproducer for it, but it's not the one that came with the machine. It originally came with a Model C and Model H, but all I found when I got the machine were just a few pieces of both, mainly just the weights.

I do get the feeling that the either the case or the bedplate has been changed at some point. My dad actually sold it to a friend in the '70s, and he sent it off to get "rebuilt." What the guy actually did to it is unknown. My dad then bought back from his friend in 2000 or so.

The bedplate is certainly a Model D. It has no end gate and "D" is stamped on it, and on various other parts. I'm going to talk to my dad and see if he knows anything else.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, June 14, 2012 - 12:12 am:

I just talked to my dad, and he said that he never remembered it having the banner that it has now. However, he also said that the machine was always equipped with the 2/4 minute gearing, and it did not have a lever to change between 2 and 4 minutes, so it certainly wasn't an earlier bedplate that had been upgraded with 2/4 minute gearing. Of course the absence of an endgate helps as well.

So more than likely the bedplate is original, but the case has been changed. I was worried that both had been changed!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Thursday, June 14, 2012 - 12:59 pm:

Cameron, all model D machines came with 2/4 minute gearing. The lever to change between 2 and 4 minute was only used on kits to upgrade older machines to play 2/4 minute. I have one of those kits on my Edison Home model B. Edison eliminated the end gates on the model C machines probably for patent reasons.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, June 14, 2012 - 02:25 pm:

Exactly. I wanted to make sure that at least something on the phonograph could have been purchased by my great grandfather. My dad said that it always had 2/4 minute gearing, even before he sold it and it was sent off to be "repaired." I asked him if he had to use a lever to switch between gears, in which case it would have been an earlier Edison that had been upgraded, and not a Model D. That would mean that not even the bedplate was actually purchased by my great grandfather, and it was swapped out as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Thursday, June 14, 2012 - 05:57 pm:

Just another update here.

I had nothing better to do today, so I decided to index the Crystal Timer. I removed the metal contacts, cleaned them thoroughly, indexed them, and glued them back in with rearview mirror adhesive. Then, I filed them down until they were perfectly flat with the glass. I'll tell you, that's some hard steel!

Afterwards, I very carefully filed down the glass around the metal segments so that the rotor made contact at the correct times and so that the dwell was identical on all the segments. That took about 4 hours with a diamond file!

Now, the timing of the four segments is within 1/2 of a degree of each other, and the rotor glides across the contacts as smooth as silk! I would have taken pictures of the indexed timer, but in the end it pretty much looked the same as it did before.

I also finished my "improved" rotors. One of them is a beefed-up Crystal Timer rotor, and it's the one I intend to use. The other will be a backup. I wrapped a brass band around it tightly and soldered it together, just as I had done with the ring. I then filled the top of it with JB-Weld, just for an added measure of strength. I gave it several coats of superglue everywhere else. It's certainly tougher, but I still have to be careful about tightening the nut on it.

The other is a modified New Day rotor. I lengthened the rotor about an 1/8" and trimmed the brush so that it would seat squarely on the timer contacts. Unfortunately I don't have access to a welder at this time, so I silver soldered it all together. It ain't pretty, but it sure is sturdy! By the way, those braces on the side are made from the lower points bridges of some T coils. I also did some other trimming so that overall, this rotor has more or less the same dimensions of the Crystal rotor. I made sure that both of them would clear everything.

We'll see what happens this Saturday!

Modified Rotors 1

Modified Rotors 2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 07:17 pm:

I know that it's been a while, but I figure that it's time for another update.

I tried the timer in my T with my reinforced ring, and it did not work well. Ol' Liz never ran so rough! Anyway, on went the Anderson Timer again and everything was back to normal. And yes, I did set the timing.

Later on, I decided to inspect the Crystal Timer and its parts. It turns out that the pot metal ring, for whatever reason, was nowhere near centered. That would certainly play havoc with the timing! In fact, the rotor had rubbed against about a quarter of the ring, and the marks from the brush on the glass piece were off-centered by about an 1/8".

I got one of Bob's new rings, and it turns out that it needed a little bit of filing and tweaking for the glass piece to sit perfectly flat. Other than that, it was certainly centered. It felt much lighter, being made of aluminum, and therefore it felt flimsy, but don't let the weight fool you. It's much more sturdy than the old pot metal ring ever was!

So anyway, last weekend I put the Crystal Timer back on with one of Bob's rings. What a difference! My T ran noticeably smoother than before, and not only that, it ran much smoother than it did with the Anderson Timer! The spark advance lever seemed to be a little bit stiffer, but other than that, everything worked beautifully.

I had always judged my speed on the road from the vibration of the engine. This almost always averaged out to 32 mph, according to the chase car following me. I had used this same technique after I installed the Crystal Timer, and the guy in the chase car said I average 40+! It looks like I have to learn where 30 mph is again!

Long story short, Kudos to Bob for making a nice aluminum ring for the timer. I would say that the Crystal Timer, with the new
ring, is a fantastic timer, and I plan to keep it even after I get my magneto working again!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, July 17, 2012 - 08:54 pm:

Stephen,
I once fixed a mainspring on a Victor III. It was broken in the center where it is connected to the winder. First I heated the metal for about one inch to remove the temper, then drilled a hole in it and rewound the spring. The secret is to pull out the spring and when it springs, you spring away from it. When you get ready to rewind it, start at the outside, and keep winding until it is all inside the drum. The winder has a hook on it which catches the hole in the spring. It worked for as long as I had the machine.
Norm

Back on subject, why is it that pot metal swells when it gets old? I know it gets brittle, but why the swelling?
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - 03:46 am:

From the broken pieces of metal i have seen around the place it corrodes from the inside which is why it swells.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Cameron Whitaker on Wednesday, July 18, 2012 - 02:09 pm:

Norman,

It was what they call "intergranular corrosion." Basically, the impurities in the metal make it react with itself.

Here's a good analogy. We all know that oxygen makes iron rust, right? Well, it only rusts on the surface of the iron because that's where the oxygen is. Now picture that oxygen was somehow added to the iron during smelting to make some sort of weird alloy. Then, the iron would rust not only on the surface, but internally as well! It would swell up and soon crumble.

At least that's how I understand it.


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