1915 Touring in Princeton Reunions P-Rade

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: 1915 Touring in Princeton Reunions P-Rade
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Valero on Friday, June 08, 2012 - 08:47 pm:

I thought I would share the 1915 Model T owned by my alumni car at Princeton. It is a 1915 with a 1925 engine which was installed in 1925 to add the electric starter. 2011 is the first picture and 2012 is the other.2011 P-Rade2012 P-Rade


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, June 08, 2012 - 10:45 pm:

Noel,

Nice looking 1915. If you have a chance would you please look and see if you can locate a body number (usually on the front seat frame – just lift up the seat cushion and look down in front of the gas tank door or on the right hand front floor board riser). Also if there is any type of letter on the front heel panel and if the car has any rivets over the coil box. Details on where and what to look for or on a previous forum posting “Home for the Holidays” at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/40322.html

And if they know that the engine was replaced in 1925, do they possibly have other history on the car? I.e. when it was purchased etc.? Or perhaps the original bill of sale which would normally have the car’s original engine number listed? By the way Henry Ford had Thomas Edison’s 1916 engine replaced with an early Apr 1927 engine and transmission.

From your photos it looks like they have several folks checked out on how to drive the T – and that is a great way to introduce more people to the cars and hobby.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Valero on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 07:33 am:

I will check later today. The car was owned by the classes of 1915 and 1950 before my class of 1982 so we have its checkered history documented. We have 4 regular drivers and about a dozen casual drivers and another dozen or so have driven once. We hold T parties quarterly so my classmates and friends can experience riding or driving.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome Hoffman, Hays KS on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 07:52 am:

Keep teaching the lady's how to drive, then you can show them the forum and that it's a place for meeting like minded drivers of the other gender.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Valero, Princeton NJ on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 10:52 am:

I have the history of the car from when it came to Princeton. The 1915 Model T Touring sedan was purchased in 1934 from Red Rubens Auto Parts in Erie PA in 1935 for $50. It was shipped from Erie to Princeton on a Pennsylvania Railroad flat car. It has engine number 9,789,531 and body number 098881 or 188860 if read upside down. The body number is on right front floor board riser. There are rivets over the coil box and there are no letters stamped on the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Valero, Princeton NJ on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 10:53 am:

Sorry, it was shipped in 1935


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 12:08 pm:

OK, it is actually a 1916 Model T.
1916 MODEL YEAR started August 1, 1915 to July 31, 1916.

Serial number for fiscal and model year 1916 began at 856,514 ending with 1,362,813.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Valero, Princeton NJ on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 12:26 pm:

Neither of the numbers I have fall within the range you mention. 98,881 and 188,860 are both less than 856,514 so it is earlier than the 1916 model year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Valero, Princeton NJ on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 12:31 pm:

That is the body number. The engine number 9,789,531 gives it a manufacture date of April 1924. We knew the engine was replaced sometime between 1925 and 1934


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Valero, Princeton NJ on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 12:39 pm:

If the frame were stamped with the matching engine number, then it was manufactured in either March 1912 or January 1913


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 02:50 pm:

Noel,

Thanks so much for the additional information. When the car was purchased in 1935 I don’t think the folks worried about “restoring it” but rather driving it in parades etc. And it is still great for that use.

But now that it is an antique car, folks often but not always would like to find out more about their cars.

First a couple of things about dating any Model T that would apply to your Alumni parade car also. By design Ford made many of the Model T parts interchangeable from 1909 to 1927. [The 1926-27 have many unique 2 year only parts and so do the first 2500 or so 1909 Fords – but in general many parts will still interchange]. Because of that, owners over the years often replaced parts rather than having an item repaired. For example placing a good running used engine in the car was often less expensive than having the current engine rebuilt – especially if the owner ran it low on oil and threw a rod or something the ruined the engine block, crank, etc. And bodies were also sometimes changed. There is a great story of the restore who purchased what looked like a 1914 touring car from the original owner. When he started restoring it he discovered that while the body, fenders, were all 1914 style the chassis was all 1912 style. He contacted the original owner and was told that yes, it had started out as a 1912 Runabout that the couple had before they had any children. Then when children started coming along they purchase a new 1914 body and fenders and had the local Ford Dealer (agent) install the new body on the older chassis [it fits fine 1909-1925 – will need to swap out some other items also]. The original owner also mentioned that the 1912 Runabout body was still in the barn if the restorer was interested in it. And the restorer purchased it and completed the restoration of the 1912 with the original chassis and body. Unlike today’s unibody cars, it is fairly easy to swap out the Model T bodies. And around 1910 or so the Ford Times carried an advertisement along the lines of “Purchase a Ford Coupe with an extra touring body and you will have two cars – one for winter and one for summer.”

So I always recommend looking at any history that might come with the car, look at the different parts and numbers that appear on them and try to determine what likely came on the car originally and what was replaced. Sometimes that is easier than others. If the car was completely dismantled and stored with one or two other cars that were completely dismantled – and they were all left outside and other parts added to the pile to “rust in peace” then all the parts look about the same rust color. And it can be very difficult to figure out which parts were on any single car. At the other extreme is the well documented car that lived a very sheltered life and was never taken apart for restoration and never had any major damage that needed repairing during its earlier years. Most of our cars fall in between those two extremes.

Concerning the numbers on the car and parts.

Ford Motor Company [USA, Canada, and England] used the engine serial number to track the cars. The engine serial number alone cannot be used to accurately date the car – i.e. if it was a replacement engine etc. And Ford sometimes stored completed engines and those would be installed weeks or even months later than those with a similar engine number [ref: Mar 18, 1924 Letter from the Chicago Branch] as well as the earlier B-serial numbered engines.

Note the engine serial number was NOT stamped into the car or truck frame until Dec 12, 1925 and that was USA production and 1926 model year cars. Ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc25.htm Any information on when Canada began stamping the engine number into the frames?

The engines also often but not always had a casting date on them. In the USA the casting date was discontinued with the introduction of the one piece valve cylinder block. Bruce never found a casting date past Dec 1921 but recently we have found a Feb 1922 but still a two piece valve cover block see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/292831.html [if anyone else has some USA casting dates in 1922 – please let us know] and for information about casting dates in general see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/178201.html Note Ford Canada continued to put casting dates on their engine blocks (also transmission covers) until the end of production. If anyone has easy access to when Ford of England [Cork Ireland initially produced their engine castings] did or did not use casting dates, please let us know.

Ford Motor Company also used a Car number that was stamped on the ID Patent Plate (you may find the original one on your car if you look from the driver's compartment at the wooden dash in the upper left hand corner.) For additional details see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/50893/54716.html?1209848159 It appears your car has been restored (looks nice!) so they may have replaced the wooden dash and may or may not have put the ID Patent Plate back in its original location. During the early to mid 1915 production Ford was still stamping a car number onto that ID Patent plate. And later during production they used the same plate but left the area for the number blank (Jim Cook’s Oct 1915 cut off had a blank without a number. Car is still in the same family with a known history). But that ID Patent plate car number stopped agreeing with the engine number for USA production starting in Oct 6, 1911 [ref: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc11.htm ] while Canadian cars continued to have the ID Patent Plate number continue to agree with the engine number past 1915. [Does anyone know if the English Ford Patent Plate had the car number agree with the engine number? It is implied on paragraph “Patents Plates” page 161 of “The English Model T Ford Book.” And if they did agree with the engine number – did they continue to agree up until the ID tag no longer carried a car number with the introduction of the steel firewalls? ] But if the Alumni car still has the original ID patent plate and if it has a number on it – then that is one part that probably started life as a 1915.

The body numbers were stamped either into the wood or into a tag for the use of the body company in billing Ford. Also it came in handy when replacement panels were ordered. They were not used to track or identify the vehicles (although if a car had been stolen – the body number could have been used to help prove who originally owned it – if the owner had kept records of the number or had a copy of the original shipping invoice that often included the body number for the earlier cars). In the case of Beaudett, Fisher, and Wilson body numbers during 1915 – they all added a month and year which helps date when the body was produced. And of course the car could not have been produced before the body was produce (the body could have been swapped out – but from new it could not have been produced before youngest part was made). Someday, I hope to gather enough data to be able to use the different body numbers to also help date a car. For example in the case of your – someday we may be able to use those body numbers to get a rough estimate of when the body was built. But currently I do not have enough data or I’m not smart enough to correlate it or both. So the body number that you have CANNOT be used with the engine serial number listing to date the car. It is a different number for a different purpose.

There are also factory numbers found cast, stamped, or forged into parts.

There are also Branch Assembly Plant numbers that can help someone establish where there car (or at least the body) was mated to the chassis. They also sometimes contain a date code. But that did not start until around 1926. For additional details see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/111490.html

And in addition to those numbers we have all the different parts we can look at. Bruce has listed many of the dates parts were changed. For example if I have an engine block with two valve covers rather than the later one piece valve cover I know the block was cast / machined probably before about Apr 1922 when the Ford records indicate no more two piece valve cover engines were produced [this would apply to USA main plant production and not necessarily to Canada or other locations. Also a branch could still assemble a two piece valve cover engine block and stamp it with a later serial number but probably not much later than Apr 1922.]

Note the front wishbone and spring perches on your car are the later type with the wishbone below rather than above the axle. That actually is a stronger set up and was adopted by Ford for production in 1919. If you would like to review the body and chassis to better date some of the major items, please let us know. For example the rear backing plates were changed during 1915 from smooth to some additional reinforcement ribs – in USA but NOT Canadian production.

An additional item that would be very helpful in dating the car would be any photos of it arriving in 1935. Were the headlamps and side lamps brass trimmed as they are today? That is an early to mid 1915 item. And in 1935 folks were not concerned about making a 1916 look like a 1915. Note they are probably tarnished and could have been painted over – but it might provide some clues.

Again thank you for the additional information.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off
(avoiding the yard work )


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Valero, Princeton NJ on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 03:53 pm:

Hap,

As far as I can tell, very little was done to the car since it arrived in 1935. I have record of correspondence from the car's buyer in 1934 questioning the pedigree. It had to be a 1915 because it was for the Class of 1915 on their 20th Reunion. It was questioned since the engine serial number indicated that it was obviously a bit newer. The 1915 build date was verified or the sale would not have been completed. The car has been pretty much the same except for an engine rebuild and a paint job in 1976. The parts you see in the picture is pretty much what the car had in 1935. I will look for the details you mentioned.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Noel Valero, Princeton NJ on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 03:58 pm:

http://paw.princeton.edu/memorials/26/44/index.xml

Unfortunately, most of the history went with Mr. Spencer's passing 6 years before I became the caretaker.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 05:14 pm:

Noel,

It makes sense that the class of 1915 would have wanted a 1915. And in 1935 there should have been several nice ones available to choose from.

One of the nice things about the internet, it gives us an opportunity to catalog, store, and share information more easily than in the past. Ten years from now if someone searches on “Princeton Model T Ford 1915 they will probably find this forum thread. Actually it shows up already on Google. And when I just searched it also turned up “The Class of 1950 For its booklet, “1915 to 1950 to 1982: The 1915 Model T Ford,” the story of several generations of Princetonians and a beloved car.” Which you are probably already aware of ref: http://alumni.princeton.edu/volunteer/awards/ace/previous.xml I would guess that booklet would contain additional photos and details about the car. "IF" Mr. Spencer's wife or surviving children are still available, you may want to contact them just to see if they have any additional information photos etc. Often times the answer is "Sorry, no we don't." But sometimes they may still have some information -- especially photos. [How many boxes of photos do many of us have in the closet?]

If you get a chance would you please put a ruler or quarter etc. next to the body number and take a photo of the number for me? A couple of photos from different angles would be great. I like to zoom in on them and change the contrast etc. to see if I can see anything else.

By the way many of the items in the photos are clearly the 1915-1916 items such as the windshield brackets, windshield hinges, fenders, spark and gas levers, steering gear quadrant etc. If you take a look at the steering column there is a good chance you will NOT see any sign of metal tube or where it formerly was attached. The earlier 1915s tended to have a bulb horn and did not have the “new fangled” electric horn.

Again thank you for the updates.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


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