Bad day today - short cruise, no brakes and bad battery!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Bad day today - short cruise, no brakes and bad battery!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 08:49 pm:

At least it started on the mag! My 24 coupe took a little trip to the filling station today. It started great on a fully charged battery. But, at the gas station, two good turns on the starter, and then dead!! Generator is good, it was charging. So My son started her on the mag, and we headed off. Went about 5 miles, down a steep hill that was about 2 miles long. I was careful, pumped the brake carefully (Kevlar bands about 100 miles or less on them) By the time we got to the bottom, we had no braking left. So we turned around and climbed back up the hill - the car ran great, small adjustment on the carb to richen the mixture a bit on the climb. So, after getting home, the battery is what went bad. It has an internal loose plate or something. I took it out, if you smack on the side, it shows a full charge on a load tester, but smack it again, and it might show totally dead. It is 3 years old, so I guess a new one is at hand. But why did the brake band get so bad, - with heat and use, do they fade a bit? I readjusted the band at home afterward, should you do that when they are hot (warm)??? or wait for a while. I waited maybe 15 minutes. Did not re-drive today because I need to get a battery - any thoughts? I dont use lights, just the one brake light and I run on the mag, and I have my generator third brush adjusted, and use a fun projects VR. - any thoughts - is this typical for a battery?? and brakes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 09:05 pm:

New Kevlar bands have to be adjusted two or three times in the first few miles. Then they are good for about a half a turn a year.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 09:11 pm:

Ive actually adjusted them five or six times in the 100 miles, but I think due to the cautions I was given, they have never been up as much as should be. But, this is the first time, I've really had to use the brakes alot, and when I removed the floorboards, I noticed that wne the pedal was depressed tightly, the pedel itself was going down so far that the shank if the pedel as contacting the hogshead slightly. So, I brought it up two turns. Actually up to today, the brakes have been great. was two turns too much you think?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, June 09, 2012 - 11:04 pm:

As long as the band is loose on the drum, I think you're OK. Going down a steep hill you're probably better off mashing down the left pedal to drive in low and give the brake a rest.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Sunday, June 10, 2012 - 05:52 am:

Good rule of thumb in any vehicle: Go down a hill in the same gear you would use to go up it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, June 10, 2012 - 08:03 am:

The virtues of having a working magneto on your Model T cannot be overstated.

When your charging system or battery fails, you can continue on your way. If you had an e timer or a True Fire you would need a tow vehicle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Sunday, June 10, 2012 - 08:59 am:

Yeh, the magneto is a lot more important than the brakes..

I don't remember ever having to adjust the wood bands after a few miles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, June 10, 2012 - 09:52 am:

Ralph, I don't disagree that good brakes are a virtue. Of course you would not need brakes if the ignition went kaput, because the car would be going home on a trailer.

John's Kevlar band should provide good braking action, better than a wood band. On a long hill even a Kevlar band can't substitute for going slower in low gear.

Safe driving technique is necessary in these old cars. Like Hal said, go down the hill in the gear you would use to go up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Sunday, June 10, 2012 - 10:50 am:

John:

It is "normal" to need to adjust Kevlar band a lot during their "break in" period which can be 100 miles up to 500 miles longer depending on how you drive. The main thing is not to get impatient and start setting them up "tight" thinking they will loosen up and seat down sooner. That can cause a lot of overheating. Once fully broken in the correct place to have your kevlar bands adjusted is a firm pedal that is near the end of travel or just above floor board bottom. This way when the pedal comes back, the band is totally loose. This way the band does not drag on the drum at any time when the brake is not being applied and that is the idea. Just keep your brake band wrench nearby and bring the adjustment up in small amounts. Once you have them seated you won't have to mess with them very often after that. I last adjusted my own brakes 2 years ago. That was a very slight adjustment.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Sunday, June 10, 2012 - 06:52 pm:

Ok, thanks John, I think what happened yesterday is that since I was on a hill, I used the brake more than I have ever used it, and with only 100 miles or so on them, it did need the adjustment. I drove the car today after the adjustment and it was fine. But, as I am running along a nice flat road at 20 or 25 miles an hour, under load the car runs great, but as I back off on the throttle to let it just run along at speed, the car wants to surge or as my dad used to say, "lope" along. If I advance the throttle and put the car under load to speed up, the lopeing goes away and the car climbs up to speed normally. then as you back off again just a bit to maintain speed, it starts Loping again. I dont think my model T truck does that, but this coupe does. It doesnt seem to change with a carb adjustment to fatten it up or lean it out. Maybe its normal, I dont know. Today I traversed the same hill, but when I slow down and start down the hill in low, the car speeds up gradually, and finally seems like Im just running too fast in low speed. Maybe I should stay away from steep hills? I did successfully put about 15 more miles on it today. no overheating (95 degrees here in cincy today) and no oil gas or antifreeze problems or leaks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 01:17 pm:

John,

If you have further trouble, remove the trans inspection cover and while observing the surface of the brake drum, roll the car ahead and look for any cracks in the drum outer diameter. A cracked drum will quickly shave down the band lining, even Kevlar.

Also, look for a worn out pedal cam. Be sure that the downward motion of the pedal creates an appreciable sideways movement of the pedal shaft, which is what constricts the brake band. Very little sideways motion will cause you to set your brake band very close to the drum in order to have any brakes at all. Also, even the slightest wear will cause your pedal to bottom out with little or no braking occurring.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 01:32 pm:

Thanks Jerry, I'll look at the drum just to be certain, but I think we are ok now. I had good brakes yesterday after setting up the band a bit There is some wear in the shaft pin at the outer cam. I could fix that I think without removing the hogshead. (drill it out a bit larger and make a pin, and harden it. I remember replacing the cams with new ones, but I didnt notice that pin at the time. I saw it yesterday. My house is paid for in May 2013, and when that happens, Im going to pull the entire powerplant for a professional rebuild and balance. I had an estimate of about 5 grand at one point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 03:31 pm:

Does the "loping" continue if you coast in neutral? If so, you might have some warpage or problem with the drums. But if it only does it when loafing along in gear, it could be a rich fuel mixture. I have some "loping when slowing down in high gear, which I think is from some slack in the drivetrain. It's been doing it for 20 years and so far no serious problems have happened. It only does it when in gear slowing down, when I get near stop, I put it in neutral and it stops smoothly.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 04:57 pm:

Only when in gear, at a 25 mile or so speed along a nice flat road. I tried adjusting the mixture, does not seem to help. Just for the sake of checking, what is the norm for the setting? about one turn open? Could it be that I have the timing too far advanced?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 10:39 pm:

John:

Are your coils adjusted properly? The timing lever on the column can be placed in a spot that is midway between places where all 4 coils are for sure riding on the same power pulse. At that point it is possible for some coils to be firing on a different magneto pulse than the others. Do the same speed test but this time when you feel the pulsing - retard the timing a small amount and see if that has any effect. If one coil is setup such that it fires at a lesser current then it can jump ahead and start firing on the next mag pulse while the other 3 are still firing on the previous pulse. This might tend to not be noticed much if you have a load on the engine. The timing lever gives the illusion that you have a vernier control on the timing but in fact there are finite points that fire and they are well selected but if you routinely place the lever between those points you can give a wavering in the inter-cylinder timing which might be what you are feeling.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 11:20 pm:

I just checked all four coils on the little tester you sell. One was actually putting out above 2 amps, and I adjusted it to about 1.3. These coils are all originals, and so they no doubt need at least new caps. That might be the problem, I could switch out one at a time or all four from my truck to see, because it does not pulsate like the coupe does. I'll perform some more tests, Thanks for the help John!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 10:52 pm:

Fixed! I started with compression - 45-50 lbs on each cylinder. Then rechecked the coils - 1.3 amps on all four. So I did notice while the plugs were out, that they were very sooted. That led me to the too rich idea, even thought I had changed coils. So, I cleaned them, and reset them from .025 to .030. because of another thread about low speed lurch. After starting, I noticed that when I retarded the spark, the car did not sound retarded like my model A does. So, I readjusted the timer rod. Re-started, and now the car did not want to continue to run when retarded, with the throttle at normal idle. So, I closed the mixture some and it started running good. We actually were running I think with the mixture open to about 3 turns. that coupled with the fact that I was running along no doubt too far advanced on the timing made the car run ok, but, It lurched or loped at cruise speed. So with the timing now set just right, the plugs clean and set at .030 and the mixture at about 1 3/4 open, it now runs great. Good acceleration, without any lag or coughing, which I think tells me the ignition is good and the mixture is good, and at 25 -30 mph on a flat straight road at cruise, it runs like it should. After 3 years of total restoration, and not driving alot, I guess it needed its final "fine" tuning, and tonight here in Cincy it was a dry 70 degrees, and it just ran like a new one! I drove 30 miles tonight and had as much fun as I have ever had in a T. Thanks for the forum help!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Leming on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 10:56 pm:

"even though I had changed Carbs, not coils" also, by the way, I bought a new battery, and adjusted the bands, and I have great brakes (for a model T)


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