I had an interesting visitor drop by my shop Friday who said that he was looking for help determining what a 1913 Model T was worth. He said that his wife's grandfather had put a 1913 pickup in the attic of his barn back around 1950 and that the grandchildren were now settling the estate, and they were curious to know if it had any value. My first thought was that it couldn't be a pickup so I figured that they were probably confused about the year, but I agreed to head south and have a look at it today anyway. Upon my arrival I realized that it was in fact a 1913 Runabout with a home-made wooden pickup box in place of the turtle deck.
It was obviously a well worn vehicle when it was put up in the loft, but it's still got many of the correct 1913-specific parts. I have agreed to help them arrive at a value and to help market the car if all the grandchildren can agree on the asking price, but I'm curious to hear other people's opinions.
What I can see correct on the car are:
• Engine (serial number 230973)
• Aluminum hogs head with lettered pedals
• Aluminum intake manifold
• Coil box and switch (both in less than ideal condition) - no coils
• Steering column with brass quadrant and offset bolt hole at firewall
• Horn
• Headlights
• 12 rivet axle housings and 2 piece driveshaft
• Muffler
• Windshield
• Top irons (one not shown in photo is in the bed)
• Speedometer - no cable or drive assembly
• Engine is free and turns over easily with the hand crank
Liabilities:
• Overall condition is very rough and weathered
• Front axle and at least three wheels have been changed
I explained that unfortunately it's got more value in the individual parts, but she was very adamant about wanting it to go to someone who wouldn't part it out and even went so far as to say that they'd rather take a little less for it if they knew that it would go to someone who would do something with it other than part it out. I have mixed emotions about that because it would cost probably 3 times what it will be worth to properly restore the car, and it will take a very ambitious (and talented) person to tackle the restoration.
So what do you guys think?
And here's the loft where it rested for the last 60+ years. They brought it down with the same block and tackle and 30' wooden ramps that the old man used to put it up there!
Something else that I noticed about this car is that it has flush countersunk rivets joining the front crossmember to the side rails where my 1913 has dome head rivets. Is this a typical feature of the earlier frames? The engine number looks like a mid March 1913 while mine is a month or two later. It's also got an unusual brace running in front of the radiator that ties the two front fender braces together. Is this an early accessory of some sort?
Thanks,
Deron
Why would you need talent to fix that? It is not even rusty. Looks good from here anyway.
Thats about what mine used to look like, value ?? $3k-$5k , pull the head , see how much of the block is left under it, that water pipe has at least two rust holes in it, the block /water jacket may be exactly the same as mine ......R/S.... but look perfect from the outside.
Hmmm Nah ! mine had much more black original paint on it still. l'd say a good start point is $3,000-
I have no idea as to what it's worth, but I sure do agree with the owners to keep it together rather than part it out. That looks to me like it would be a very good project, lots of possibilities. Dave
It has the wishbone under the axle, probably the entire front axle was changed, which would account for two of the wheels. Also has a later crank on it. I would give $3000 to start the bidding. Again what is it worth, depends on the final purchaser.
Looks like a nice project! What is the casting date on the block and on the cylinder head?
Sell it to some guy in Nigeria for $50,000!
i want the barn
Three grand sounds right to me. It looks reasonably complete, a good project for somebody with lots of time to work on it. This isn't a just get it running and enjoy it car.
Exactly where is this T located? You would probably get the family the best price by providing us with the family's name and phone number and have those interested, simply contact the family and make an offer. Best price takes it. If there are several potential buyers involved, naturally, there will be competitive bidding which will drive up the price. If you get the family's permission to do this, you should start a new thread with a very concise description like: "Up for bid. 1913 Estate Sale barn find" so there will be no misunderstanding as to what the thread is about, then re-post the pictures and the contact phone number. Jim Patrick
Waiting for the incoming " don't restore it" - "its only original once" comments.....
It looks to me like it was rode hard and put up wet, but it's more car than a lot of us start with. Somebody will make a nice car of this one.
Do they have the title? I think 3 grand is too cheap. I think 4500$ is a good price. Model t haven would want 5 to 6 grand I bet. But I barely have any business coming up with a estimate. I'm still a little green.
I'd have to look it over in person (especially the wood) to consider anything even close to 3K
Wow. Just wow. Too far gone for my talents, patience, and time I have left on this planet. "Needs everything" isn't an exaggeration here. More to the point, if one charges only minimum wage for their time, he would be upside down before that car is finished. Will make a great project for somebody who is a widower whose time is worth nothing, who has nothing else to do, and looks for another challenge that would make grown men cry.
Addressing the rivet question: sounds like the front crossmember was replaced. It was very common for these early (thinner) members to crack and require replacement. Give the other (later) front end parts, it looks like the entire front end underwent some major surgery.
Sorry to say, the sum total of it parts are worth much more than the car as it sits. I would love to buy it for 3K just to keep it 'as is' in my home workshop as a static display but alas, I haven't the luxury of a neat 10K sq.ft. barn to keep it in. Jimmy
at $3000-$4000 it's a good buy despite the condition...it's a 1913 T not a 1923. Consider the value a of 1913 block, hogs head, diff, drivesharft, lights, etc.
Question is do you really want to take on such a big project? Fully restored correctly the car will be worth $25000 to $30000. Probably you'll spend more than that restoring it.
I like it. If I was bidding at an auction I would go a lot higher than the $3,000 that a lot of you have mentioned. I think it would be hard to find the proper turtle deck, but I would give it a try. I wish it was closer I would bid on it. My 16 was an estate auction where the guy had nine restored Ts, 12 model As and a bunch of tractors. The Ts were all restored except the 16 which looked like heck because someone had put original side curtains on it that were in shreds. The wood in the 16 was mint but the curtains made it look so bad that I got it for what I thought was a cheap price. I think if someone looks past the roughness of this roadster and is not scared of a lot of work, they will find it is worth more than $3,000.
I like it. If I was bidding at an auction I would go a lot higher than the $3,000 that a lot of you have mentioned. I think it would be hard to find the proper turtle deck, but I would give it a try. I wish it was closer I would bid on it. My 16 was an estate auction where the guy had nine restored Ts, 12 model As and a bunch of tractors. The Ts were all restored except the 16 which looked like heck because someone had put original side curtains on it that were in shreds. The wood in the 16 was mint but the curtains made it look so bad that I got it for what I thought was a cheap price. I think if someone looks past the roughness of this roadster and is not scared of a lot of work, they will find it is worth more than $3,000.
Boy would I like to have this one to restore for myself, it would be a great T for the high country.
Constantine:
If every T was judged by what the cost of restoring it against what they are worth NO T would be restored. I enjoy restoring Ts just like this one and think this one would be really great to restore. Obviously you can't contract every thing out to the professionals but must do most of the work yourself. What is it that you think you are going to spend so much restoring it? The front Axle is NOTHING, I have some that I have been giving away, including spindles and radius rods.
Whats under that head condition wise will determine the true value, if its been drained before going up there, l'd lift $3,000 to say $5,000...but l'd want to see under first, or a new 13 block may be needed, they are out there too, but getting one for the right price will be a timing thing, It is certainly a do able resto.
I don't think your car is as bad as it looks. As long as the rust isn't pitted, it shouldn't be a problem. My '13 Touring wasn't much better than yours, and I restored it 50 years ago. Good luck, and have fun with the restoration.
I would love to have it to restore. Two problems, 1-space, 2- $$$. I would pay the 3k.
Do you guys charge yourselves for your own time?
NUP its all just LOVE..cough, cough.
I guess if we added our own labour costs, at a reasonably low rate..say $5-00 hour, the car would when being restored at home would have at least another $10K on top of it !!!
Yikes, dont think about that part...
A lot of guys are looking for one like this. If it were to be sold on ebay, it would easily go for $5000-6000+.
This 1913 runabout was in similar condition when found , here are some restoration pics..
http://www.modelt.ca/13T-fs.html
If the owners are going to insist on who gets it you'll have to go with what's said here but Rick has it right as far as an "I don't care sale". I would set a reserve at what the owners want and auction it off. I think it would do quite well. Not my style but there's plenty out there who'll take it on. Maybe adding "the owners would like to see it restored" to the ad could appease them. Cash talks.
The owners would have much better luck having their wishes for it to be restored if they sold it to one of us rather than listing it on ebay and taking a chance that it gets sold to be parted out or sold to a rodder. Of course, either way, there are no guarantees once the title has been transferred, the new owner is free to do whatever he wants to his new acquisition. Jim Patrick
Hi Kep,
"Do you guys charge yourselves for your own time ?" An old car friend who did most of his own work and always helped some of us younger car nuts when we needed advice or help. Would say with a big smile, if you are restoring the car for yourself always charge yourself .10 cents an hour,that way you can afford to do it.If you charged your hourly rate that you get at work,you couldn't afford to restore the car.
Scott
Hi Kep,
"Do you guys charge yourselves for your own time ?" An old car friend who did most of his own work and always helped some of us younger car nuts when we needed advice or help. Would say with a big smile, if you are restoring the car for yourself always charge yourself .10 cents an hour,that way you can afford to do it.If you charged your hourly rate that you get at work,you couldn't afford to restore the car.
Scott
I would love to take on a restoration like that. If I had the money (I don't) and it was within 500 miles of home, I would bid a fair price. But a lot of stuff is going cheaper right now. At the Auburn CA swap meet yesterday, was an original late '20s track race car with a nice looking 1914 engine and outside mag drive. Price lowered at the end of the day to $1500. I couldn't believe it (the engine should be worth how much?). I did not know the seller and had never seen the car before. I stood around it for about fifteen minutes talking it up hoping to help it find a good home. The original chassis was loaded with authentic potential. There was also a 1915 T touring car, older restoration and nice looking. The engine was apart, and the asking price was $5900 (for a brass car!). It did sell.
I would say, depending upon location and a few close looks, $3K to $5K.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
This 'barn find' early 'pick-up' was at Chickasha in 2011, pretty sure it sold, but don't know the final price. But it was in running condition too, and 1912 with correct chasis.
I would be curious what that '12 sold for. The '13 above would be worth just about half as much due to both condition and desirability.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Dave Huson,
I guess you're right, if you can do most of the grunt work yourself it shouldn't cost more than $20-25K to restore this car.
Actually, not that it is an issue and I do think numbers bantered about are fair for what is shown yet a curious question having nothing to do with the sale...front cross member changed, later axle with under the axle wishbone mount...overly safety concious at one time, or a 'knuckler'?
Only comment would be to pick up on what others say since it is an 'estate' car...to take it apart and sell the parts would get the most money...to sell to someone who has the gleam in their eye on seeing it with a 'promise' to restore is probably the next highest, but they will maybe never get round-to-it and decide to part it out to get their money back...and to sell to someone like on here at the next best price where the 'promise' would actually be fulfilled...Deron, you are in a tenuous position as 'helper'. 'Estate' stuff always gets messy with many different emotional needs...but I'll still show up at the next one I find
Rickydick's Rule of Inheritances:
"Those who deserve an inheritance will probably never need it."
The rest will fight and tear a family apart.
----------
My folks left nothing but memories, so all us children get along very well.
rdr
Constantine:
I do ALL the work myself including the motor work so I think that you are still high. If a person is going to worry what it is going to cost to restore a T then he better not do it AND BUY A FULLY RESTORED CAR from some one else and even then you would find that the car is still going to cost a little to satisfy your self. You are right when you say that the car is NOT a 23 but a 13. The $3,000 price would be closer for a 23 (maybe a $1,000 to high).
I would like to see anyone go to a farm auction in this part of the country and get a 13 roadster for $3,000. Take a look at the sheet metal.
Constantine you say "do most of the grunt labor your self" I do all my own labor, includng the motor work. I enjoy doing the labor and spend hours helping others do theirs at no charge.
I guess what I am trying to say is if I get a chance to pick that one up or one like it I would go a LOT HIGHER than $3,000. Try buying one for $3,000. It would be a very rare find.
The 1912 at Chickasha went for just under 8000.00 Don Lang bought it
I would give them $3000 for it and never part it out. I just hate to see a good old car messed up that way. My wife even says go for it!
Bob
That 1913 is exactly what I was looking for many years. I didn't think there were any unrestored ones left, so I started collecting parts to put one together. I spend over $3000 and still didn't have an engine or body. If anyone is serious about one like this, they would gladly give $5000-6000 for it. Just think of what it costs for gas, hotel, and food to go to swap meets and for shipping on ebay. Getting a mostly complete original car would be wonderful. And it's not that rough. This is one of the better ones. I believe the body alone would sell on ebay for $4000+. I remember back in 2008, a 1913 touring body, that was in several pieces, sold for $4500+.
Whats good about this Barn 'T' is that its not a cut off touring like the one at Chickasha was. I remember that T and seems like it went for around 7-8 thousand and it was a running car. I may be wrong but maybe someone else remembers.
To me this T would be a restorers special if a guy is handy with tools.
I am like Dave Huson and others and think its around a 4-5 thousand car and maybe more.
I have been to Chickasha many many times and some cars are priced a little high but thats depends on how much you want it. It always gets down to that.
Well we haven't heard from Deron since this thread started.
Deron, did ye buy it sir?? (hehe)
Sorry for the radio silence guys, been extremely busy at work. Pushing an unreasonable deadline...
I haven't spoken with the owners since last weekend but I did offer to let them bring the car to my shop where I could clean it up a bit and advertise it. As I understood it, the lady that I spoke with is only one of the heirs and will need to OK any decisions with the others before doing anything. I do intend to keep you guys informed when/if they make some decisions, assuming that they let me know....
As much as I'd love to have it for myself, I already have one 1913 that I can't find the time to mess with, so I'd only be fooling myself if I thought I could do this car justice. Plus, I'm completely out of garage space....
I found the discussion here about values very interesting. Last weekend I told the owners that I felt like the car would be worth $2500 to $3500, and I based that on what I paid for my 1913 Touring and the relative condition of the two. From the majority of the responses it looks like I was in the ballpark. I completely agree that it's worth more as parts but it seems a bit of a shame for it to have survived almost 100 years mostly intact just to be parted out now. But when you boil it all down, at the end of the day once the check has been cashed there isn't much one can do about insuring that it stays together.
As for the cost to restore the car, well, I guess everybody defines the word differently. Some of the replies have been interesting to say the least, and a few downright comical, but I can assure you that it would cost double (if not triple) what the finished car would be worth to properly restore. The operative word here being "properly". Even if a person has unlimited free time and can do nearly everything themselves, it's still a losing proposition financially. When you start to add up the costs, materials and parts alone will likely put you over the threshold of what it'll be worth finished. It's a fairly rough car and even though most of the tough parts are there, not a single piece of it would be useable as-is. Every single part on the car will require some form of restoration and/or repair. But to each his own I suppose.... Regardless, it's still a really cool Model T with a very interesting history and deserves to be enjoyed in some capacity.
So anyway, as soon as I hear something I'll be sure to update the thread. Hopefully they'll take me up on the offer of helping sell the car so that at least it'll go to someone who can appreciate it.
Deron
Deron,
What is the casting date on the block and head?
I failed to get that Royce. I'm pretty sure that it was a January date because I recall seeing a single "1" as the first digit, but that's all I recall. After I wrote down the engine number I started wiping off the casting date and the lady walked up to ask a question about something else and I ended up getting sidetracked. There was so much cool stuff in that barn to see, I could have spent five hours in there! I'll be sure to get it the next time I see the car, which I hope is soon.
Deron
On the block, that is. Where would the casting date on the head be?
My T would sell for about $5,000 and cost about the same to build including tires and registration. It does not have parts from all the same year however but it started as a lot less than that car. If the buyer was not worried about the front axle parts being slightly newer and used an old leather chair for the seat cover it would save him a heap of money that could be spent better on thing like brakes or engine.