How rare are brass T Delivery Cars?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: How rare are brass T Delivery Cars?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 08:32 pm:

and in which year was this body style introduced...was it 1912? Do many of them still remain?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ray Syverson on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 08:36 pm:

Please,don't tell us you found one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Danuser on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 09:07 pm:

Ask John Regan at Fun Projects


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Monday, June 11, 2012 - 09:11 pm:

Constantine,

Original ones are quite rare. Reproduction ones are more plentiful [several folks and companies have made reproductions to various degrees of accuracy. Model T Haven had a new reproduction body for sale for several months but it is no longer on their web site]. Rootlieb used to offer one. And many more were offered by other companies with the "C" cab like opening but noticeably different from the ones Ford originally sold.

Ford USA Introduced it as a 1912 model (also the 1905 two cylinder had a deliver car with some similar lines). A slow selling vehicle. Bruce has listed 1,845 sold in fiscal year 1912 http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1912.htm and 513 sold in early fiscal year 1913 http://mtfca.com/encyclo/1913.htm At: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/A-B.htm Bruce has: DELIVERY WAGON Bodies built by Beaudett, and Milburn. Introduced in late 1911. These were initially painted red, with the standard blue fenders. In January Ford announced that fenders would be black and the bodies unpainted. A poor seller, production was discontinued early in the year. The last were sold in December 1912.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 12:31 am:

I have known of three of them claimed to be the only surviving restored from original delivery car.
W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Cutler on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 01:13 am:

laundry delivery rh sidelaundry delivery lh sideHere is a project that has latched on to me. It is an original laundry delivery body I mounted on a 1914 T chassis. Not sure what company built the body. Always liked the C cab style.

Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Pitts on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 11:16 am:

Steve, did that come from Anacortes WA? Are you located in WA?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Optics Guy on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 11:26 am:

Looks like Anacortes Washington!! I am only one hour away, can I come visit?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard Paulsen, San Buenaventura, Calif on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 11:31 am:

Priceless and absolutely irreplaceable patina. A window into the past. It's one of the most beautiful cars I've ever seen, on par with John Mozart's original 1911 Cole Raceabout. Something to preserve for our grandchildren.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Cutler on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm:

The body was originally from Anacortes Washington. I am in Portland. I hope that my efforts will extend the life of this old survivor.
Steve


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 01:24 pm:

I have two brothers living in Anacortes. Took this in their old downtown. Their chandlery/hardware store is one of a kind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 01:40 pm:

Stephen, do you think it could have been on an earlier chassis originally, or later?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 02:20 pm:

Thanks for your replies. Hap, great info.

No, I haven't found one.

There is currently a 1912 Delivery Car for sale in Canada for C$65000. Ad says it's an original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 02:46 pm:

Here is an older thread with pictures of one of the very few surviving original bodies:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/104150.html
That body is also discussed here: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/207660.html?1304002152
John Regan is *the* expert after researching and restoring this one:

regan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 06:29 pm:

Constantine, you and l are thinking far too much alike, a town car and a delivery van to complete a bigger set of variations.
I like your thinking..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 11:23 pm:

Constantine,
The 1912 Delivery car for sale in Canada for $65000 might be one of Eric Edwards restorations ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 01:03 am:

The "Main 950" Delivery Car pictured above is a pretty picture but nothing like the body that Ford put on their Delivery Car for 1912. For some unexplained reason - almost every "encyclopedia" of old trucks ever printed says that the 1912 Ford Delivery Car was a wood bodied car. That simply is not the truth. If you look inside the one I am calling the Main 950 then you will see wood on the sides and what appears to be a seat back rest that goes all the way across. There is also a slight arch to the roof line at the front. Ford Delivery cars were straight across there and the technology of the Delivery Car is pretty much exactly the same technology as their 1912 Touring car namely a wood framework with .034 thick metal stretched over it. They were striped from the factory early on and had a distinctive "Ford" decal on both sides. You can see it in the picture of my Delivery car above. That is my son Johnny holding the pie and my wife Renee awaiting its delivery. Garfield Farm is in the background which is a mid 1850's surviving farm house being operated as a living history type of site. The first delivery car I found was made by Beaudette and is a "standard body" meaning it was built as you see it and shipped fully assembled. It is a very early example having a motor number dated to December of 1912. The body as found has a Beaudette body serial number but alas the records do not go into December of 1912 so I could not find any record of the body to determine its original motor number. Details of the surviving body revealed a door latch mechanism that was used only early on and also this body did not have the seat box reinforcement that came shortly after this car. To the best of my knowledge every part of this body is accurate and per the drawings and research that I have found. Every iron, screw, nut, and bolt is exactly as they were and I have the factory drawings of those parts showing they were used on the Deliver Car. Floor step plates and lots of body irons all per Ford drawings. There was a very small and faded red color on the underside of the roof above the driver's side left "C" opening. That color was enhanced and by wetting it which is the only way to simulate its original shade. That was matched and used as the red color for the body. All pin striping is exactly what I found in the hundreds of pictures that I have of original Delivery Cars.

If you estimate the number of surviving Model T's and divide that by the 15M or so that they made you then can figure out that about 2.5 to 3 Delivery cars should have survived but unfortunately then as now - commercial vehicles are not typically survivors. There are many 1970's cars around today but not a lot of 1970's pickup trucks by comparison. That is simply because they received hard use and were discarded. I have personal knowledge of 4 original Delivery Cars. I don't share too much info on this because so many false "originals" abound and any details I share will soon be found in many more "originals" not otherwise heard about ha ha. I know of one man out east that I spoke with at length and the details he had led me to for sure know he had half of a body that was a Ford delivery car. At first I though I might have the other half since the above pictured car of mine was constructed by having only the drivers side half but the "pile" of wood pieces also did have a few parts from the other side and all of the roof tie pieces in a bundle. Whoever saved the body and its box of "irons" knew what they needed to save. The DC in the east had only the right side part and none of the top or rear doors. There was also another Delivery car from down south that I know was an original but the owner was simply a liar and fed me a lot of BS early on that I found not to be true. That was sad since I have to completely discount his input since he is not trustworthy as an historian and seeks only to authenticate his vehicle but there are many many parts of it that have been changed and I just happened to have run into some folks who knew the body before hand and said it was different then and that made sense by what I knew was changed but the owner denied he changed it and said it was 100% original - it wasn't. The 4th Delivery car I know about is the most complete and totally authentic survivor with original motor but it was "restored" in 1948 and a ton of the running gear and sheet metal was changed. But the good news is that the body itself was not changed at all nor disassembled. The motor was kept with it too. It is a very late "knock down" version also by Beaudette. The knock down version was shipped with the body in sections. Left side, Right side, Roof, doors removed at hinge pins, seat box, and floor. Those were the sections. The dealer bolted it together and it was then a complete Delivery Car. This DC has all the later modifications to the seat box and the top roof can be removed by unbolting some carriage bolts and metal straps. No doubt it is a knock down version. I have traced this lone survivor Delivery Car all the way to the original buyer and have a picture of it with that buyer's step son at the wheel while it is parked on the property still owned by the family. It has an August 1912 or so build date. I have its registration from 1924 and have spoken to the grandson of the original owner who sent me the picture of this car from his family album. It was sold in 1948 to a restaurant for display but rather quickly was resold to a man who owned a laundry. He was the guy who had it "restored" but they did some really ugly things to it. Aftermarket Fenders, HUGE headlight forks for wrong lights. Later rear end and drive shaft... BUT they didn't mess up the dash or body at all. It was pictured in a 1950's era Bulb Horn magazine on a tour and parked on the street and it was painted white. I have that magazine. I have spoken to that owner and he sold the car to a man who then gave it to his son some 35 years later. I purchased the car from the son after sharing everything I knew about the car he had and making sure that he indeed wanted to sell it. He was a fireman and had a couple of kids and needed the garage space. He had taken the body off the frame to get the thing into his garage and was then going to restore it but only got things taken apart but again thankfully NOT the body. So that is 4 of them. I know of no other originals though I have chased hundreds of them down only to discover their originality was not real. The origin of most delivery cars ends up being a picture. I am a skeptic but good research requires that I have to be. I keep a few "secrets" about delivery cars because I use those to interview owners of "all original" delivery cars. By knowing a few details that are not widely known, I can prevent having to fly to their abode to verify what I suspect is indeed another wild goose chase. I have been researching Delivery Cars for a very long time and just kinda like them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen Cutler on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 02:22 am:

Ricks-My thought was that the Anacortes body may have been built for an earlier chassis.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Chantrell - Adelaide, Australia on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 07:00 am:

John - great read. I appreciate your attention to detail, it is fabulous.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 07:22 am:

John,

I'm also glad you like the Delivery Cars and I’m thankful you have captured so many of the details and saved one beautiful example. Thank you also for sharing so many of your discoveries on the forum, in the "Vintage Ford" and face to face with others.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 08:33 am:

Stephen, I sent emails to my two brothers in Anacortes, but no response yet. There might be somebody in town who would value that body. T guy Wayne Murray lives there, too, last I knew.

Witness marks on the body where it contacts the frame at the rear corner mounts should tell you if it was ever on a 1913 or earlier frame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 11:00 am:

Scott,

Correct. He also has a 1909 Towncar project for sale.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 11:32 am:

I have read, and reread the article on Johns car many times. It is a fascinating article, along with the pictures posted with it in the Vintage Ford. I have great respect for John and his methods of restoration. I hope to someday be able to see this vehicle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 03:01 pm:

On TV a few years ago I saw a report about a group of retired US Navy Seals who went out to confront people who falsely claimed they had previuously been a member of the elite special forces group.

Perhaps, the MTFCA and MTFCI can form a group to confront people who falsely claim they have "correct" or "original" Ts, especially brass ones.

John, Hap, Royce and others from this forum would be good for the job, but i'm not sure their hand to hand combat skills are currently up to scratch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 04:19 pm:

Constantine:

There are bigger problems than that since some cars that have appeared in one of the club magazines have been featured as being a particular car when in fact it was pretty obvious to many of us that it was not as presented so it would be difficult for the club then to get behind some sort of "jury" to root out phoney cars if they have appeared in a club magazine. Many people really don't care about authenticity and on some cars I myself don't care that much but when someone puts some big money into purchasing a car that is represented as being an historical artifact well.... "Let the buyer beware". I for one would like any old car publication to not present cars of historical significance unless they have been thoroughly researched since the general public looks to organizations such as ours for validation of these types of cars. Too often it is just a beauty contest.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kim Dobbins on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 08:45 pm:

John, you know i am right there with you on that one, but im afraid its a useless endeavor. Stuff happens that shouldn't, but in the end its up to a buyer to do there own research. The truth is out there and not that hard to find.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 09:00 pm:

John, agree with you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Watson -Florence,Colorado on Thursday, June 14, 2012 - 08:05 pm:

John,
What's even worse is when certain Car Builders (See Blue 12 above) end up being a Judge and often end up judging their own cars.
-Don


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