Warning - supplier tie rod shims part no. 2728SH

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Warning - supplier tie rod shims part no. 2728SH
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 05:19 pm:

When I was doing a U turn to get into the car park of the Ras Hotel in Addis Ababa my steering locked up. I had to reverse the car a bit to make the U turn in two steps.

A few days later I went to move the car in the car park and found I couldn't turn the steering wheel.

Turns out the pitman arm was pointing into the air hitting the bottom radiator outlet!

In Australia I had installed the very thin metal tie rod shims sold by the suppliers.

The thousands of miles I covered, with many of those on very rough roads, must have worn these shims out. Problem is they moved from the sides of the steering rod ball to the front causing that joint to lock up. When I was turning the steering wheel the wheels didn't turn but the pitman arm did!

In Australia when I replaced the ball cap and put the new shims in I found there was already a US 1c coin in there as a shim.

I never throw things away and I kept the coin with my spare parts. Glad that I did because I put the coin back in when fixed things up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 05:27 pm:

good save, at least you and the car are still ok.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 05:37 pm:

Constantine

You are the premier hard usage tester of T parts, old and new :-)

Lots of oil and grease on the moving parts on your trip can aid early wear and malfunction.

Here is an old listing of things to lube, the ball joints on the steering linkage is done each 200 miles, and note the spring clips to be checked at 1200 miles.....you already did that one :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 05:45 pm:

Goes to show you can't beat old Abe Lincoln in a pinch!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 06:19 pm:

Even more sorrowful is the thought that someone would rely on a temporary fix over a permanent one. :-(

If you can put the thickness of a penny in there it's beyond the service limit. Parts should be replaced if it's that bad.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 06:30 pm:

Ken,

The tie rod ball on a 1913 T is part of the drag link. New ones are not made. Try finding a early drag link with a perfect ball in Australia for a LHD car.

On later Ts the tie rod ball bolted on to the draglink and new ones are available.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 06:35 pm:

Good point Constantine, l am guessing that the old ball can be cutoff and a new thread tapped for a repro ball, haven't had a look but l'm guessing it can be done .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 06:41 pm:

You could install apco spring loaded caps. They will take out all of the play at the ball joints. They make greasing the ball and socket much easier too.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 08:44 pm:

If you can't get such a critical part either new, used or rebuilt perhaps the car shouldn't be on the road. Would you drive your car if you couldn't get brake bands? It's not up to the suppliers to make parts idiot proof. You're blaming the supplier for what now? The brass shim didn't last 1000 miles in a high force, high wear location? Who's really to blame here?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 09:01 pm:

Have you finished your rant?

Where above have I blamed anyone for anything?

I used the shims for exactly what they are meant to do; namely, compensate for a steering rod ball that is less than perfect.

If you took a moment to think, you'd realise that the suppliers disagree with you that it's such a critical part, otherwise they would never offer shims for it in the first place; would they?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold R Carpenter - Fair Grove, MO on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 09:16 pm:

Constantine
It sounds to me like you are operating in the tradition of early Model T drivers who often did road-side repairs using tobacco tins for shims and bailing wire to hold things together. Keep up the good work and enjoy the great hobby of keeping Model Ts alive and well with what-ever works.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 09:25 pm:

Not my rant. You started it by complaining about the part. By your analogy, brakes aren't critical either. Or axles, or spokes, or tires, or... Make your own list.

Did you bother to reshape and polish the ball? Or even measure it to see if it was round? Replacing a forged steel part with brass was your choice. That's all I'm saying. Those shims are NOT a permanent fix.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 10:08 pm:

[quote]Not my rant. You started it by complaining about the part.

Are we in primary school here?

[quote]Replacing a forged steel part with brass was your choice.

I did no such thing...what are you talking about? I added two very thin metal shims (part no. 2728SH) to each side of the steering rod ball. After these shims failed due to being too thin, I replaced them with a 1c coin. I also used a new steel ball cap.

[qoute]By your analogy, brakes aren't critical either. Or axles, or spokes, or tires

You've lost me here as well. How on earth did you come up with that based on what's written above?

[quote}those shims are NOT a permanent fix.

Agree...but if you are going to use shims you don't want them to do they did to me. Being thicker, the 1c coin is a better option.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 10:37 pm:

Stephen,

I have an APCO on the pitman arm side. I'm not sure it's a good idea to use an APCO when the ball is more than a touch worn. The length of the spring in an APCO I would think is designed for full sized ball. An APCO with a 1c coin shim on the other side of the ball may work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, June 12, 2012 - 11:48 pm:

Constantine, here's my two cents:

I have pennies in my 24 touring steering as do many others in our club. We've had no problems with this fix.

Ted


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 01:49 am:

Do you use a pre-1963 copper cent, or post-1962 copper clad zinc?

IIRC, the ball is on the tie rod, not the draglink, FWIW. It sounds like your steering went over center. Doesn't that reverse the steering? Good thing it was locked, if so.

I would check closely that the spring is still centered in the frame, as offset will allow the pitman arm to go over center, and into steering reversal. I believe the original engine pans may have helped keep the pitman arm from going past 90, but I've never seen any of those pans...

I would expect looseness at the tie rod ball to be undesirable, but not enough to allow the pitman arm to go over center. I would have a friend rock the steering wheel against the stop in each direction, and carefully look at the pitman arm to see how close it gets to 90 degrees.

"Doc, my arm hurts if I pinch it right there."

"Don't pinch it right there."

Buen viaje, Frohe Fahrt, etc., Constantine.
rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 02:06 am:

[qoute]Lots of oil and grease on the moving parts on your trip can aid early wear and malfunction.[/qoute]

Hello, May i ask if that is true? i oiled my pitman arm every day and it wears loose every 3 months. Am i doing it wrong?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 02:09 am:

Looseness is like a little guy hammering in there. Eventually, it gets looser, until it's Toulouse Latrec.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Shirley on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 04:59 am:

1982 was the last year for the "copper" penny and also the first year for the copper clad zinc, both were made that year. 1857 was the last year for the 100% copper penny, known as the large cent. The lincoln cent, 1982 and before were 95% copper and 5% tin which is technically bronze. This bronze alloy gives them the wear factor that makes them useful in our T's. PS, I don't mean to come across as a Smart A**


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 06:36 am:

I installed the penny in Constantine's car to take up the wear in the ball cap a decade ago when the car was mine. A penny is formed around the end of a ball peen hammer's round end to fit tightly to the tie rod ball.

Like all things T related the tie rod connections needs to be disassembled, inspected and lubricated occasionally. For most of us once every few years is sufficient. Glad that you kept it handy Constantine!

The steel shims from the vendors are not made to take up this amount of wear. A penny actually works better for this job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 08:21 am:

Thanks for the correction, Smart A**. . . :-)

Yes, I was going from faulty memory; only 20 years off.

So, is zinc as good a bushing material as bronze? Not likely. It still wants grease.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 10:15 am:

Royce

Thanks for adding your 1 cent worth!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Kopsky, Lytle TX on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 02:27 pm:

Actually, zinc is harder than brass, bronze or copper. And it's slick--Almost self lubricating like nylon or UHDPE. It's used for making many sheet metal stamping dies. I use pure zinc a lot for stamping one-off parts. The drawback is that it's brittle and corrodes (oxidizes) quickly. But yeah, it still likes a light oil for lube.

Hey, maybe someone should add it to oil! ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 04:57 pm:

By the way, Constantine is (correct me if I am wrong please) talking about the Pitman arm end of the drag link. His tie rod has (or had) a very nice ball, and the pitman arm was also in near perfect condition. The wear was in the drag link cup on the steering Pitman arm end only if I remember correctly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine in Melbourne, Australia on Wednesday, June 13, 2012 - 09:36 pm:

Royce,

In Australia, I had someone who knows Ts check the front end of the car, with me present, and we found wear in a number of places. For my trip I didn't want to cut corners in this area so I decdied to re-do everything...all bushings, kingpins, tie-rods, spring shackes, pitman arm, ball cap, new spring for the APCO, etc.


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