I am rebuilding the rear axel on a 1925 coupe. The roller bearings fit fine in the sleeve and it also fits fine on the axel, but when I try to install the axel in the bearing after it is in the sleeve it is too tight to go. I think the new sleeves may be thicker than the original sleeves. Has anyone else had a problem with the new sleeves. Or, am I doing something wrong?
Sounds like your sleeves aren't fully seated. Check to make sure the dimple is in the right place.
Sometimes they are a tight fit even with the dimple properly seated in the hole: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/271340.html?1330579178
Might be a tolerance issue with the parts - or perhaps a bent axle housing?
Thanks for the suggestion Jack. I will pull out the sleeve tomorrow morning and will re-install it being sure that the dimple is in the right place.
Roger
Thanks for the link to the earlier discussion on this topic. At this link there are links to two other discussions. It seems that many people have had a problem similar to mine. Now I have many possible solutions. tomorrow should be an interesting day as I check out these possible solutions. It is problems like this that make T restortion such an interesting and enjoyable hobby.
There are two places that make bearing sleeves.
One place makes the sleeve .002 thousandths to thin a wall thickness. This leaves the axle with play after assembly.
The other place makes the sleeve wall thickness .002 thousandths to thick, and you can't assemble with out beating the bearing into the sleeve, and would put undue stress on all parts.
We use the over size sleeve, and made a holder to hold the sleeve in while it is honed to size on a Sunnen hone, and is honed to the right Ford spec's.
After that when fit together, it is easy, and no axle movement.
Sprung housing have to be fixed, but that is a complete separate issue, by its self.
If the sleeve is oversized, a slightly worn bearing would probably work. Might be worth doing some mixing and matching. Dave
What are the specs that you are honing the sleeves to? What did you use as a jig? Was it a cut off axle housing? Thanks, Dan
Used bearings (they aren't making any more) are plentiful and cheap. For the sleeves that are .002 too thick it should be easy to find some bearings with .004 wear that are otherwise good.
The box of twenty bearings in the center of this pile cost me $3. I haven't checked all of them, but at least a few turned out to be OK.
I'm betting the axle housing is bent. I know the guy who developed the best quality sleeves that Langs is selling, and they are made to Ford specs, at least they were when he was making them. The thing to do is check the best quality new ones against a NOS sleeve, and that should tell you whats going on.
If you used inner seals which go between the sleeve and the tube, it is entirely possible that the sleeve might need to be shortened about 1/16 inch. If it is not all the way in, the dimple will not go into the hole in the housing. Shorten from the inside edge of the sleeve if necessary.
Norm
If the sleeve is oversized, a slightly worn bearing would probably work. Might be worth doing some mixing and matching. Dave
That won't work Dave, as the sleeves are not a precision I.D., and any worn bearing will not be worn any thing other then taper. The short of it, you can't fix the bearing, new, or used, so you have to fit the sleeve hole.
Like I said, a bent axle, and or sprung housing will not interfere with the fitting of bearing, and sleeve, as that has to be done first.
Some of the pictures didn't turn out, I messed up some place, I will try it again.
One thing that can make quite a difference is cleaning the inside of the axle tube where the sleeve fits with good cleaner and a sanding drum to make sure there is nothing in there holding the sleeve from opening to its largest diameter when installed. I find that a lot of them have old hard grease, sand, dirt, burrs, etc.
My understanding is that most bearing rollers wear down but may be used when worn to down to .495" or larger. When a bearing roller is worn to smaller than .495" then the thicker sleeve is the answer because the worn bearings will work very well in the thicker sleeve. If a bearing of .495" is used with a new thick sleeve you only have .0025" clearance and that is not enough. Get an old worn out bearing of .493" or smaller that has parallel surfaces and use the thick sleeve. Folks throw those away sometimes. They make the thicker sleeve to help us old T folks use up otherwise throw-away parts. Your axle will think that it's brand spanking new again.
What are the specs that you are honing the sleeves to? What did you use as a jig? Was it a cut off axle housing? Thanks, Dan
Dan, I used a thick wall pipe. Maybe you could do that, but before I machined a pipe, I checked many housing, and got many different sizes, so I took an average, and that worked out for me at 2.214, to 2.215 I. D.
The dimple slot is .687 long, or deep, and it is .315 wide. the sleeve is 4"'s Long, with an O.D. of 2.505.
Using the too thick a walled sleeve, the average to take out is about.002 in I.D., with that said, it depends on the housing, bearing, and how much you have honed? They can very, but if you want a perfect fit, try each sleeve, and see, if you need more out. This is the only way I know of, with out N.O.S. parts.
If you run a loose fit where you get axle movement, up, and down, after you are assembled this is very hard on the axle, as bumps on the road keeps slamming the axle.
If the parts are to tight, you will get rapid wear, as in cut axles, as sleeve wear.
The only Repops that I know of that work with out reworking is OLD stock of RB CO. the two offered now, one is not useable, and the other is .002 thousandths to small.
You would think it would be just as easy making Repop parts that were the right size, as not, and there are more repop parts that are made wrong, then right.
thanks Herm.
My understanding is that most bearing rollers wear down but may be used when worn to down to .495" or larger. When a bearing roller is worn to smaller than .495" then the thicker sleeve is the answer because the worn bearings will work very well in the thicker sleeve. If a bearing of .495" is used with a new thick sleeve you only have .0025" clearance and that is not enough. Get an old worn out bearing of .493" or smaller that has parallel surfaces and use the thick sleeve. Folks throw those away sometimes. They make the thicker sleeve to help us old T folks use up otherwise throw-away parts. Your axle will think that it's brand spanking new again.
Frank, when you have a New part that wears, they never wear accurate, they wear out. If, who ever makes the under size bearings made them for wore out parts, then shouldn't some one make the right size parts for NEW parts, and N.O.S. parts, or minimum wore parts?? I wonder where the most money would be??
I'm with Frank on this. If someone made new Hyatt bearings, that would be great, but they don't. I would use good used bearings and mix and match them to the undersized sleeves. If the bearings are worn tapered, turn them around. The fit may not be perfect,but I'd bet they would run a very long time. I used to do some welding for an old heavy construction contractor here years ago. I was building up track pads for a Link Belt LS78 dragline for him. I wanted to get them as close to the original ones as I could. He said to me "Dave, don't worry about it, it's just a f*****g old dragline, not a Swiss watch". Hard to argue with logic like that. Sometimes I think we forget these T's aren't Swiss watches. JMHO. Dave
A while ago i asked the forum why new hyatt bearings were not made & was surprised at the response. Figured out how to stamp out the cages but not the bearings themselves yet, Have a few ideas how but no resources behind it. One day when the market demands Hyatt bearings maybe someone will try it.
I think one point should be noticed. From my playing with rear end alignment and sleeve fitting at least one of the rear end half's had two different housing diameters on the same half.
If you look at the houseing bore there is a cross hatch with some sort of tool that will decrease the diameter of the bore. A snap gage will not measure the diameter accurately a full length go no go gage will.
The sleeve does not fit a 100 percent tight with that cross hatch it rides on the high points.
I have one bore you can plainly see a full 1/4 inch wide strip the full length of the bore where the sleeve AND the cross hatch skip over metal in the bore where there was not enough metal for the cross hatch.
I ground a wire wheel to fit the bore, in a air grinder it cleans that bore very clean.
If the sleeve is a tad oversize then I see nothing wrong in using a bearing a tad undersize provided it shows no signs of spalling or fatigue on the rollers. The Model T rear axle is not a Swiss watch and Hyatt bearings are designed top be forgiving in alignment.