Seatbelts in a T

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2012: Seatbelts in a T
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 11:18 am:

Looking for advice. My dad and I have a differce of opinion regarding seatbelts in the new speedster. I think it's a bad idea. The car has no rollbar and won't ever have one and my fear is there is nothing substantial for protection if the worst ever happens. Like a motorcycle, it's best not to be strapped to it. He disagrees saying a very minor accident could cause a person be thrown from the car. I have a lot of respect for this man but I think he's wrong. And yes the easy answer is to drive safely and avoid accidents altogether. We both agree on that one. What's your opinion on this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 11:31 am:

Obviously, both opinions have merit. However, I agree with you. The thought of being strapped to a speedster like yours in a rollover is pretty scary. JMHO


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 11:36 am:

So you can let your father put belts in it but let the rider decide if he wants to use them :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 12:10 pm:

What percentage of speedster accidents end in rollovers? Seatbelts are a clear advantage in anything but a rollover, and then it's 50/50.

If you think you'll have any control over the movement of your body in an accident, you are dreaming.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard Paulsen, San Buenaventura, Calif on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 12:43 pm:

One of the reasons why I enjoy driving my old cars, all of them, is because I don't need to do what the government requires people to do in regard to passive safety. I'm an ex-pilot, ex-race car driver, and I do not have any turn signals, seat belts, airbags, or ABS brakes in any car that doesn't have to have them by law.

But I'm a big proponent of active safety. I do anything in my powers to avoid getting into an accident instead of trying to feel more safe when having one. I look ahead, expect any idiot to do what idiots tend to do, keep a safety distance, and my car is equipped with a large cow bell and a train whistle that will get anybody's attention when I step on the loud pedal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 12:47 pm:

My $.02 -

Not an easy call as it all depends on what kind of accident you expect. I opted to go without seat belts in my speedster and touring. They are probably a good idea in a closed car. In any case, there needs to be care taken in how they are secured. Fasten to the body (if you can find a solid way to do that) rather than to the frame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 12:59 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Shawn Hayward on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 01:00 pm:

information on lap type belts

A lap ("2-point") belt in an airplane
A lap belt is a strap that goes over the waist. This was the most commonly installed type of belt prior to legislation requiring 3-point belts, and is primarily found in older cars. Some coaches are equipped with lap belts, as are passenger aircraft seats.

Until the 1980s, three-point belts were commonly available only in the front outboard seats of cars; the back seats were only often fitted with lap belts. Evidence of the potential of lap belts to cause separation of the lumbar vertebrae and the sometimes associated paralysis, or "seat belt syndrome", led to progressive revision of passenger safety regulations in nearly all developed countries to require 3-point belts first in all outboard seating positions and eventually in all seating positions in passenger vehicles. Since September 1, 2007, all new cars sold in the U.S. require a lap and shoulder belt in the center rear seat.[11] Besides regulatory changes, "seat belt syndrome" has led to tremendous liability for vehicle manufacturers. One Los Angeles case resulted in a $45 million jury verdict against the Ford Motor Company; the resulting $30 million judgment (after deductions for another defendant who settled prior to trial) was affirmed on appeal in 2006.[12]

I would never install one, if you have the wrong placement of the attachment points IT WILL seperate your spine, I know of people in this situation,....and YOU are responsible

just my opinion though


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steven Thum on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 01:03 pm:

Ken Meek, Killed in the roll over of his T because he was not ejected like his wife was.

Nuff said.

Steven


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 01:16 pm:

Does anyone know a automotive engineer that could look over a Model T and give their professional opionion on where and how to mount seat belts?
Cars that contain them,are designed for them.Cars without,are not.
I would think even a closed car would be a risk with them.
I am more concerned with the steering shaft going thru my heart and my head slinging backwards than being thrown out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 01:20 pm:

Accident in the #40 speedster where car rolled in 2004 - driver survived, passenger did not. No seat belts and both were ejected. From the looks of the accident scene and remains of the car, both would likely have perished if they had been strapped in. It is a bad day when a speedster flips over.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 02:21 pm:

Roger gets the Cee-gar. Put 'em in and let the driver/passenger decide. Any open T is going to result in a lot of bad news from a roll-over but the sensible driving mentioned can help prevent this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 02:26 pm:

Ed: can you elaborate on the cause of the accident in the pic. you posted?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 02:29 pm:

I agree with Ricks. Here's a familiar scenerio.... driver and passenger are looking at some landmark (enjoying a typical T tour route...) and the driver realizes he's about to drop off onto the shoulder so he "cranks" it hard back to the left. We've all done it. Well if the passenger (who usually is gawking more than the driver) dosen't have a death grip on something, he or she might be making a hasty "exit" from the car. Of course, this mostly applies to speedsters. Just one more humble opinion....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 02:40 pm:

I sort of agree with Charlie and Roger, BUT there may be a problem. We know that in most states you are required to equip your car as it was originally built, meaning seat belts are not required in our T's. However, if you do install them it could be argued that you are then required to use them.

Anyhow, it an interesting question. Any opinions out there on this?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 02:48 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 02:50 pm:

I dont remember the details on the first one, but the second was a members 16 year old and friends that flipped it over. No seatbelts in either, nobody killed or hurt critically.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed in California on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 02:56 pm:

Here is the forum link.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/98372.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 03:23 pm:

Statistics have shown that a belted driver is more likely to be involved in an accident. I think you are right, It would be the same as having a seat belt on a motorcycle.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 03:26 pm:

I might add that if you are worried about seat belts, then a roll cage should be installed, a roll cage is not any more variation from original than belts, but you might need to re-engineer the car too, and then you just as well go to the city and buy a Geo, it will go faster and be more comfortable than the speedster.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 03:32 pm:

Oh, I hate to get into this:

Again, what percentage of T accidents are rollovers?

From the above you see the chances of surviving without seatbelts in a rollover are about 50%. Being thrown free is a fool's gamble. Your chance of being killed in a rollover while belted are no worse.

There was a modern that pulled out in front of a T coupe in the PNW several years ago, and the unbelted passenger was thrown into the street.

There was a 15 Touring that lost its brakes in a tour down a mountain in BC some few years back, and the unbelted front passenger went into the windshield when the driver put the car into an embankment.

Sure, I'd have 3 point belts in the ol' brass picup if it were practical. However, the lap belt keeps me behind the wheel, where I have a better chance of regaining control.

rdr


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 03:46 pm:

Could those statistics, Gustaf, be because way more people drive with seatbelts than without? Back about 30 years ago, statistics said... 1.-the average driver would be involved in at least one serious accident in their life, and 2.- wearing a seatbelt usually resulted in less injuries during that accident. I have heard a lot of stories of someone who knows someone who knows someone who would have been seriously injured if they had been wearing their belts........ I have, however actually seen accidents that would have been avoided if the driver was wearing a belt.
Do I like "big brother" telling me what to do? Most of us don't, right? And yet, we can't drive a single mile anywhere in this country without being told several times what to do! Personally, (for instance) I don't mind being told to stop because I know that when I'm on the "other side" the other guy is told to stop and that's a good thing. right?

Of course, seatbelts in Model T's is a whole different ballgame. I don't have them. I did install them on a speedster I built but that is gone. I do have them in a Model A fordor.
This is just my opinion, guys. No intent to raise any blood pressure!!!!! Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 05:01 pm:

I agree with Ralph Ricks; I hate to get into this discussion at all, but for what it's worth:

I have a nice depot hack that we bought with the thought that we can take more grandkids with us in such a vehicle. The depot hack had seat belts in the front seat only, for driver and R/F passenger.

Again, with grandkids mostly in mind (and I let their dad, my son, help me make the decision on this one),......I installed four additional seat belts for all four additional back seating positions. I think it's important to note (especially after reading this thread and additional previous discussion in this forum) that all six seat belts are anchored to the wood body structure ONLY.

My overall thought on this whole thing is that the main reason for the belts is so that I don't have to worry about any excited little kids jumping around in back and possibly falling out of the car. (I have no seatbelts in my touring or roadster)

God forbid ever having any kind of accident, ESPECIALLY with grandkids aboard, but in that event, I feel like having the kids LIGHTLY secured to the vehicle with seatbelts is all I can do, and in the event of an accident, let the Good Lord (who I trust to protect to protect my passengers, especially the little ones) sort it out.

I really don't think that there is a really good 100% answer to this seatbelt discussion; however, as I said before, "for what it's worth",.......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 05:04 pm:

In rereading this entire thread, plus my post, I guess I should add that I should have used the word "lapbelts" instead of "seatbelts" as that is what mine are.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By A. Gustaf Bryngelson on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 05:31 pm:

Hey Joe,
Yes, it is because they feel safer and can push the envelope.
Best
Gus


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 05:45 pm:

I like Roger Karlsson's thoughts on the subject, but as already pointed out, the "Nanny State" won't let us decide for ourselves when to use seatbelts, once they're installed.

I suppose lap-belts are useful in an open car when you're carrying a load of boisterous, bouncing children and you don't want a door to accidentally open and one of the kids fall out while the car is doing 30 mph. Other than that, the protection offered by lap-belts is so limited as to raise the question of whether they'd do more harm than good in an open, easy-to-roll car.

To avoid a spine-compression injury, a shoulder belt has to be mounted a few inches above shoulder level. That's not at all possible in an open car and I wonder whether the structure of an enclosed car, at any point above shoulder-level, is beefy enough to serve as an anchor point. It would be nice if that were the case, because enclosed cars, with their tendency to resist rolling completely over, might benefit from three-point belts.

Belted or not, open brass-era cars offer fractionally more crash protection than do motorcycles. We have no crumple-zones and no bumpers — in fact, the backrest of the rear seat IS the rear bumper. Protection from the sides is non-existent, unless you're carrying a Prest-O-Lite tank of acetylene, in which case it's much worse than non-existent.

So... no front brakes, no air-bags, poor traction, high center of gravity, yadda, yadda, yadda... all mean the best defense against a traffic accident is uninterrupted red-alert vigilance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike conrad on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 06:46 pm:

Thank You all for your insight on this matter. I sure am learning alot. I have also shown this post to my dad and it has given us much to think about. There has been some very good points made from both sides. This is a very tough subject and has brought forth some painful reminders from the past as to what can happen when the worst happens. I'm not sure there is a defined right answer as to making our cars safe. For me driving with the understanding of what can happen helps. Thank You


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 09:01 pm:

[Hap – I wear my seat belt in my modern car and also in my older car if I have installed them. I plan to install them in most of my older cars.]

Someday, I hope to do some additional research on the use of safety belts in Ts and similar open cars such as Model A Fords. In the mean time, as part of the “truth in posting” if the folks that are posting comments would please add if they use their seatbelts when they drive their modern car and also their antique car. There may or may not be any relationship between those who feel strongly that wearing a seat belt in a T is safer or more dangerous – but I would suspect someone who doesn’t wear a seat belt in their modern driver (ok if it is pre seat belt – please let us know if you buckle up when you ride in a modern car equipped with seat belts) that they probably are not interested in adding seat belts to their Model T. This may or may not be similar to asking folks would they recommend installing x,y or ,z type of transmission bands. If they already hate that brand or type of transmission band – they probably would not recommend it. Conversely if they really like that brand or type of transmission band they would recommend it.

Emotions are good – but I would like to gather a little more data on the subject if possible.

Also, for those who kindly quoted some statistics if you could share the reference that should help speed up the research some. I tried Googling one comment and it led me to a book – but I would like to verify the comment without having to read the book.

I think for the later 1960s and later convertibles that were equipped with lap belts and starting in 1968 or so with the shoulder harness and lap belt – the evidence supported that wearing a seat belt was more likely to help you than hurt you. If it had been a clear cut – they are death trap in a convertible then the 1960s and 1970s convertibles as well as the 2012s would not have been required to have them [i.e. they would have been sued and they would have had the law changed that seats were only required for the enclosed cars.] And yes for sure the more modern convertibles are much less top heavy than the Model Ts, Model As, etc. (Speedsters probably are less top heavy than stock Ts but I do not know how they compare to say a 1966 Ford Mustang for roll over.)

I am biased as a prior safety officer and accident investigator. I have seat belts in my 1931 Model A Town sedan and I will probably install them in my antiques (funny – some folks think my 1931 is an antique?). But I would suspect that the data should help tell us if the chances of a roll over accident are significantly higher than the chances of a sudden stop type accident (hit the tree, hit the car in front of you etc) in our Ts. And then we could make a more informed decision.

Thank you all for your help and for keeping the Fords on the road.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 09:12 pm:

Hap,

No seat belts in my T's. Use them religiously in modern vehicles that are designed for them. I used using them long before the "Click it or Ticket" laws came about. In a properly engineered closed cabin vehicle, staying in place is far better than bouncing around (or out) of the car. I don't need statistics or laws to tell me that.

Walt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 09:33 pm:

How about a 1951 VW; would you put lap belts in it?

The lap belt do doubt saved my bacon as I hit ice at 55 and did cartwheels. The driver door popped open, and the car landed on it. I'm sure I would have been in that same spot as the door, save for the belt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 09:59 pm:

Gees, I wondered how long it might be before we had this topic again and got to see those unfortuante pics again.
You have to think about how many accidents happened or where someone was hurt during a minor accident and noone ever would have heard about it except close friends. I believe in those many cases belted passengers would have been spared the injury.

In my modern I always use my belts. My T I normally use my seatbelts except maybe in my neighborhood for short a run.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 11:15 pm:

In California you don't have to have seatbelts in your T because they weren't available when the car was new.

If you let the DMV apply a new VIN tag when you registered the car the first time it is possible that they may consider it's model year the same as the date they tagged it and require belts (and possibly other safety equipment... if you survive the accident you can argue this in court).

In Califunny the driver is responsible for the actions of the passenger. So if you have belts in there and the passenger doesn't use them then the operator of the car can be cited. So if you have belts in the car you have to use them. So in my opinion don't put belts in if you plan to let the driver or passenger decide whether or not to use them, because you are making that decision at the time of installation.

I agree with Henry Petrino (if you do install them it could be argued that you are then required to use them) and not with Charley B (Put 'em in and let the driver/passenger decide).

The decision to install or not install is something which is often debated. It depends on the local laws where you intend to drive and those where you intend to crash. It depends on your personal view of the possible sequellae of a crash, it depends on your liability and medical insurance. On and on. One thing is darn-tootin', if someone gets hurt in your car it will be blamed on you and on not wearing belts. If no one gets hurt then no one cares about the belts.

It boils down to don't get in an accident and you don't have to worry about it.

IMHO, TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera on Friday, June 15, 2012 - 11:45 pm:

Hap: Put me down for always wearing um in a modern car. Everyone else in my car must also wear them or walk! Put them (lap belts) in a Mod A and also use them. Do not have them in my T's. I justify that by saying I don't go that fast or in heavy traffic with the T's... Of course I'm also very familiar with Murphey's law.....

I would also think that for every 10 police officers out there, only one might care about a "stock" Mod T or A, but I doubt if even he (or she) really knows all the equipment laws pertaining to them. The rest just have more important things to do... This is just my humble opinion, which is clouded with forgetfulness and ignorance........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Thode Chehalis Washington on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 01:53 am:

If you really want to be safer in an open car, I think a helmet would be the only way to go. Bones and bodies break and heal, break a head and it will likely kill you.



Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep NZ on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 03:59 am:

There are a lot of laws in my country around putting in seatbelts, Alot of paperwork involved. i have no seat belts in my T for better reasons. Sure i might get impaled in the steering wheel but just the other day i got pursued by maoris so i spun the car around and aimed it at them and folded the windsheild down so it was easier to jump over. Not sure the T would stop if it hit a lowered honda it would probably ride over them like a monster truck and then run me over too. If i had seat belts i would not be able to jump out so easy!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 04:16 am:

One of the guys in my area was hit on the driver's side front in an open express bodied T.
The car did a 180 on the spot and the driver was out and on the concrete as soon as the car was hit.
He could easily have been run over by another car.
It may be better not to have them in open cars but cars with no doors or side body panels I think need them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 07:56 am:

Funny, Kep. I wonder how many know what Maoris are?

My neigbor is an ICU nurse. She say with helmets the scrambled brains are just kept in one place..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 08:06 am:

At this point I would like to share I goofed. I or someone else needs to develop a questionnaire before we ask folks for their answers. The reason -- the above answers are all over the map. And while they communicate helpful information, I cannot easily correlate Terry's thoughtful response or Jim's recommendation for wearing a helmet (which makes sense if you are using the motorcycle - jump approach). When I looked at it this morning I kept adding columns to capture additional information or comments and noticed that without some specific questions it will be difficult to make anything statistically accurate out of the inputs.

If there is someone out there who can help me come up with a meaningful Excel or similar questionnaire that would be great. Also I need to get back into the Excel help menu and find out how to tally up "Y" and "N" answers in the same columns rather than having two columns etc. I still want to do the survey but I need to do some ground work on the questions first so we can get something out of it. And of course related to that would be data on T accidents. As pointed out above the ones with serious injuries or death are more known than the ones that had minor injuries or just damage to the car or even ego.

Note just because we think it is helpful or harmful doesn’t necessarily make it so. I enjoy the example of the early 1900s when Radioactive Drinks were sold as a health tonic. (Ref: http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-08/healthy-glow-drink-radiation ) Of course they later found out that wasn’t such a good idea. I think there is room for data to help us make a more informed decision.
And it may turn out that it doesn’t clarify which way is better. We won’t know until we do some checking.

Thank you to those that responded to my initial questions above. Someday (after a few other “to – do” items are crossed off the list) I will try to tackle this again. In the mean time – if there are some folks that would like to try and come up with a good way to document this better (not just the way we think it should turn out) please let me know. Additionally if you have some first hand experience with T accidents please e-mail or post and also if you have some second hand information (saw an accident, have photos of early accidents, etc. please let us know that also.). My e-mail address is the third line down in my profile and you can access that by clicking on my name at the top of one of my postings.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 08:59 am:

A typical design safety standard for an automobile seat belt attach point would be 2250 pounds of shear strength per attach point. (200 pound occupant, 9XG, safety factor of 25%)

There is no where on a Model T body that would support this sort of load. If you were to install a seat belt, and it failed in the accident, you would be liable for whatever portion of damages the jury chooses to assign to that design deficiency.

Life is not safe. You can die from being hit by hail stones on a sunny afternoon in your back yard. Drive your Model T at a reasonable speed, and beware of other drivers. Keep your car in good shape and inspect it often.

I always wear seat belts when driving any car that came with them originally.

I drove around 50 miles in a 1906 Model N in the past week. It did not have seat belts, nor does it need them.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 09:31 am:

Anecdotes, personal or otherwise, no matter how interesting, prove nothing. So here are my anecdotes.

In 1966, returning to Fort Huachuca from a Thanksgiving weekend back home in southern California, I was driving my 1953 Willys Jeep pickup late at night. A few miles west of Yuma I fell asleep while doing about 50 mph and drove head-on into a tree. I was banged up a bit, but I know I survived the crash only because I was wearing a lap belt.

In 1972 I was driving a 1964 Kaiser Jeep wagon on a dirt road in western Colorado. At 45 mph a front tire blew out and the Jeep did a 360º rollover. I was wearing three-point belts, so I stayed in the vehicle and came through without a scratch.

I know others can tell of incidents where belts didn't help, or even caused injury or death. Those stories also prove nothing.

Wisdom lies in playing the odds. The numbers, which DO prove something, say your odds are better with belts than without. Refusing to do the smart thing as an act of rebellion against the "nanny state" is folly.

Because of my personal experience and because of the odds, I have belts in all my postwar vehicles, and I always use them. I expect eventually I'll have belts in my T's too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Booth@ Bay City, Mi on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 10:24 am:

2 bits...In Michigan the law reads that a seat belt is REQUIRED if so equipped. So if you put one in you by law have to use it...just a FYI


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Aaron Griffey, Hayward Ca. on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 03:06 pm:

Steve, if I were you I'd stay away from Jeeps.
It's like others have said, "It proves nothing".
If you'd had a three point belt when you hit the tree you probably would not have been even banged up a bit.

In Ca. any car that has had belts added to it MUST be used, even an old car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 03:57 pm:

I don't care if you have seat belts or not because when your number is up, your number is up. I know people who were wearing seat belts and died in an accident and I know people who weren't and survived. So good Lord willing you'll get through an accident but if you don't it's not because of any control you have of your life. Enjoy your T and don't worry about it...no one gets off this planet alive.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 03:57 pm:

There's another complication, at least here in Califunny. The CA Vehicle Code states,

"27302. No person shall sell or offer for sale any seatbelt or attachments thereto for use in a vehicle unless it complies with requirements established by the department."

I looked around but could not find a definition of "requirements established by the department". However, this sounds to me like it could be problematic. Is just the belt itself subject to this section, or do the requirements also provide guidance relative to installation, anchorage (chassis, body, or what) etc. that would probably be different from one vehicle to the next?

I think this whole subject is a real can of worms. Clearly IMHO and as Royce says above, the addition of seat belts to a T has more implications than just what you personally think about safety and the use of seat belts. There could be some liability issues associated with adding them that are not readily apparent.

P.S. It is not my intent to be arguing for or against seat belts in T's, but just point out something to consider.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Martin on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 07:20 pm:

Fitting any seatbelts to a timber framed vintage car is about as useful as installing a chocolate ashtray.
Chris M.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ricks - Surf City on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 07:26 pm:

Why is it all these non-lawyers give advice with utmost authority on what will happen if you do this or that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 08:41 pm:

I know here in the area, if you want seat belts you can go to any junkyard and they will give them to you free. No paperwork, no nothing. They said they won't sell them though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 09:50 pm:

I just read Federal Standard 210 for Seat Belt Assembly Anchorages. It says that belts are to withstand 3 to 5 thousand pounds of force.

Seat belts in a T are probably useless....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Saturday, June 16, 2012 - 11:22 pm:

Ralph,

Mike started this thread with "Looking for advice." and concluded the first paragraph with "What's your opinion on this?" I certainly have intended to respond to his request, as I believe the others have, by offering what I think. I do not believe characterizing our comments as "...non-lawyers give advice with utmost authority..." is fair or truthful. We have simply offered opinions and points to consider on what's obviously a controversial subject, as requested.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 12:42 am:

Ralph,

I am giving a very informed opinion. If it does not suit you then please don't respond.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike peterson on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 08:25 am:

of course u can look at it this way, if u do put seat belts in, and take someone for a ride and their strapped in, get in a accident, the person is killed or hurt since their strapped in, and not thrown clean, and since the car wasnt equiped with seatbelts when made, there could be a lawsuit against the owner or whoever installed the belts. but of course,im a "non-lawyer", but bet i could find one that would take that case, and win.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 08:44 am:

Mike - I look at it this way. No matter which way it goes, belts or not, passenger or not, injuries or not, ejected or not, there'll be a lawyer that will take the case, and approximately half the time he'll win. The next day he'll lose..... Pretty well describes our legal system, huh?!?!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike peterson on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 09:21 am:

yes it does, but this one would be one of the ones that he wins. seat belts in a T is neither good or bad, right or wrong, its personal choice,Im not saying seat belts will save u in a T , nor am i saying they kill u either, in a roll over, in a open T , odds anit very good at all, in or out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bernard Paulsen, San Buenaventura, Calif on Sunday, June 17, 2012 - 02:11 pm:

Let's add seat belts to the subjects such as motor oils where we agree to disagree, shall we?

I'm all for wearing a full face helmet, Nomex underwear and socks, as well as an SFI-15 rated driving suit and gloves when going on a drive with an old car. Better safe than sorry, right?

Thinking about it, It should better stay home. Even safer.

Now ya'll say this with me: "Amen."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Monday, June 18, 2012 - 12:57 am:

If you are scared to drive it, leave it in the garage.


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